Amex, Challenged by Chase, Is Losing the Snob War
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I recently attempted to file a return protection claim with my Sapphire Reserve for a display cable that turned out to be faulty. I tried the Visa Infinite site, but Visa as an organization doesn't recognize the United States as a Visa Infinite country yet so I couldn't find anything relevant there.
Then I recalled eclaimsline, which was the site I used a while ago when I had the Sapphire Preferred. It asked for my first/last name and credit card number, and then did not show me the option to file a 'return protection' claim -- just purchase and travel protection.
After that, I went on Chase's website and dug through their documentation and eventually found cardbenefitservices.com, where I was prompted to create a new account and then verify my card number again. Upon filing a claim, I was asked to upload my purchase receipt and credit card statement proving the charge had hit my account. I waited one week and received an email in my spam folder that asked me to mail the item at my own expense to Visa before my claim could finish processing -- mind you, this is for a $20 display cable.
My experience with Amex would have been a three-step online form containing a very small number of fields followed by an immediate credit within 48 hours.
EDIT: it's just a room at an airport.
Chase started harassing a coworker whose daughter died to try to illegally collect her debt within 72 hours of her passing. I will never do business with them.
When I called Chase to use their travel protection, the CSR redirected me to eclaimsline.com.
I filed a claim and uploaded my credit card statement showing the charge and the email receipt from Priceline. few days later they updated the claim demanding statement from both my airlines (booked on two different airlines) stating that I did not receive any refund (or partial), terms and conditions of ticket cancelation from both airlines, T&C from Priceline because i purchased via Priceline, a copy of the death certificate and statement from Priceline confirming that I didn't receive a refund or credit. And all of these statements must show the company logo (email address wasn't enough apparently).
Worst part was United didn't have a template for no refunds issued for this ticket and the CSR who emailed me chose a template that mentions credit for future flights in case of cancelation due to family emergency. My claim was denied because of the word credit in that email and I had to email few times before they finally agreed to pay me. This took well over 5months.
So yea, I'm really thinking about canceling my Reserve card and getting an Amex Platinum.
Every time I sign up for a new card (google credit I'm looking at you) the customer experience is just absolutely horrible. I mean rip-you-off type horrible - where you enter a bank account for autopay, and they then charge you late fees for 2 months because "our terms of service say adding an autopay account may take up to 90 days". The other card I've signed up for in the last 18mo was a store credit card to get 20% off a one time purchase - and they couldn't even get that right. I had to have my lawyer call and threaten to sue before they finally credited the proper amount and closed my account. It's just ridiculous what most folks seem to put up with.
I've tried to cancel my Amex since I pay a yearly fee which I find stupid. But each time I deal with any other credit card company I pretty much realize Amex is in a league of it's own.
If they start to dip on customer service it's all over for them. That is the only thing keeping them alive on life support at this point, but that's really all it will take as long as their competition is so utterly anti-consumer.
I'm starting to avoid doing business with companies that don't take Amex. It's just not worth the hassle of dealing with anyone else. My Costco membership is no more due to this.
That all said - it's just a stupid way to pay for stuff. I'd prefer to use cash all things considered, but unfortunately that's generally not possible this day in age.
Why? Credit cards are faster, safer, easier and simpler than using cash - and come from with benefits and service. How is cash really better outside of anonymity and quick transactions these days?
> Why? Credit cards are faster
No. There's no electronic lookup to verify cash is valid. No swipe, no chip with cash.
> safer
Nope. Thanks to Target and Home Depot breaches, plus some other hacks, I've had to replace cards 4 times in the last 18 months (3 in 6 months). Those last 3 all had chips too, so much for being safer or more secure. To say nothing of skimmers or card cloning. Fortunately they don't use RFID in credit cards or else it would be double.
I will note that I was never on the hook for fraudulent charges, so protection is a definite advantage to credit. Amex has also been secure for me throughout my history with them.
> easier and simpler
Open wallet. Hand cash over. Get change, if any. This is the same effort as taking out a card, swiping/inserting it, and putting it back in my wallet. The only advantage to credit is online purchasing, which excludes cash transactions by its very nature.
> and come from with benefits and service
Very true. Except for purchase protection however, these always require a membership fee, and not all services offered are useful. I've seen high-end card services that "book your travel, hotel, everything" for you, but are still subject to blackout dates. So what am I paying $450/year for if you can't overcome that? (Takes me 15-30 minutes online to figure out) Also a lot of travel services are pegged to a single airline or hotel chain, e.g. Chase Sapphire and United Airlines. (that's working out well recently)
>How is cash really better outside of anonymity and quick transactions these days?
You said credit was "faster" and then later said cash is better from "quick" transactions? Typo?
Regarding anonymity, that's crucial. Credit card breaches risk revealing all kinds of other personal information, and can be used for credit history gaming, loan applications, identity theft, etc. There is no convenience in having your credit score wrecked by some hacker just because you bought a greeting card at Target, and then only because their HVAC vendor was lazy/stupid.
Even if that didn't happen, every company is sharing purchase and customer information. Once they link it to Facebook, they can find out what all your friends are buying as well, and then target ads or sell info to spammers. Cash prevents that, at least for now.
This goes against every experience I've had waiting behind someone with cash at the grocery store. A credit card is just a single swipe (not even a signature for low dollar amount purchases at many places), while it always takes longer for someone to pay with cash and the cashier to make change.
Cash is only really slow because people have lost their familiarity with how to give change. I find that to be somewhat unfortunate, frankly.
How many times did you have these type of issues? I've never had an issue with a "dirty chip" or a network interruption. These types of issues are very very rare.
I could tell you - your cash can get damaged while you carry them - that will make some merchants refuse to accept it, Also try going and paying with a $100 bill - a lot of places don't even accept them.
> Cash is only really slow because people have lost their familiarity with how to give change. I find that to be somewhat unfortunate, frankly.
Seriously? Did you forget how long did it take before to calculate a proper amount of change in the first place??? Nowadays cashiers have a screen that tells them right away how much change to give back, that already drastically reduced the transaction time, but it's nowhere near the transaction time of a credit card, nevermind nfc payments.
I had a stack of $100's due to a vegas win that I could spend every location I tried (in my home town). The only caveat is I'd ask if they could change it out first, since today hardly anyone uses cash and cash drawers get slim. It's not very difficult to spend them, and that even surprised me a little.
> Seriously? Did you forget how long did it take before to calculate a proper amount of change in the first place???
Man these comments make me feel old. I didn't forget at all, I was a cashier. If you can't instantly calculate proper change for any transaction under $100 you didn't make a very good cashier. Most experienced (with cash) cashiers could trivially beat a chip-based credit card transaction. I do agree today you are correct, but I also find it incredibly sad and pathetic.
A properly trained and experienced cashier can change out a $100 bill for a random say $35.24 transaction in roughly the amount of time it takes to print one of those extra long receipts.
In fact I'm pretty sure with an hour of practicing on a cash register again I could likely match it. A few weeks and I'd consistently beat it without trying.
> but it's nowhere near the transaction time of a credit card, nevermind nfc payments.
You are correct re: NFC, but that is still not widely accepted. Chip card? Cash better be faster or your cashier is incompetent. They are incredibly slow.
I really find it strange so many on HN defend credit cards as a social good - they are not. They are a social evil if anything, exacting a 2-3% tax on all transactions since once they met plurality the merchant fees just got priced into all goods. I do not find this to be ethical at all, and feel it's one of the least ethical systems I contribute to - it's simply a wealth transfer from the poor to the wealthy. Very few poor folks get to use rewards cards, and they still pay the same 2-3% merchant markup we all do. Without that huge 0% cash back customer base, your reward benefits would be slashed.
I also didn't mean my trailing comment to cause such a controversy. I wasn't actually denigrating cards on purpose there, just stating I find the whole 'churning' and 'status' scenes pretty ridiculous and silly. I dropped that prefer cash line in there as an afterthought :)
A lot of processing time of cash transaction goes into a customer opening his wallet, counting bills, searching for a change to match the amount so that he gets a solid bill instead of coins, same goes for cashier, he/she has to calculate first, double check it by counting again in front of customer. So I am sorry ,but I disagree that even back in the days it was faster to pay with cash vs today's credit cards
Also, a small thing, but you're generating less data exhaust, not involving third parties in a simple transaction, and (depending on what and where you're buying), there is the "cash discount"/not paying taxes to the banks.
That's why cards (credit or debit) are faster; cash is validated in amount by manual counting, and for validity of individual bills often by even more cumbersome manual counterfeit detection measures. Electronic verification makes cards faster.
Every single person in the US now effectively pays 2-3% more for goods, and that goes directly to pay for your benefits.
I don't consider this a positive, and I honestly feel really scummy using my card in such a manner - but it's one of those things protesting doesn't really help any longer.
I also actually do value my privacy quite a bit as well - and giving banks free marketing data annoys too.
I feel the first complaint is a huge social problem, but the second rather trivial.
Also, credit cards are only faster these days vs. cash due to the insanely bad cash handling skills of the average cashier. 30 years ago this was exactly the opposite - and once in a while you'll get an old-school cashier who has worked a cash business for years and you will realize how utterly slow credit is in comparison.
As far as the cost of credit card rewards, the cost of managing cash for retail businesses is about 1.3% (cite http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfina...) but I honestly suspect that doesn't take into account cash shrinkage (theft). At 2-3% for credit cards, it's not a huge difference. I spend way more when I use my credit card then when I (grudgingly) use cash, so I suspect retail stores come ahead overall by taking credit over cash.
We have NFC (or PayPass) nearly everywhere.
So you tap your card, and about 2 seconds later a receipt comes out. My 1 year old can do it. In fact, she actually loves doing it - every time we go to a store, she takes my card and I help her tap it.
Compare that to the old doddery shops using cash, where they have to take their gloves off, get your notes/coins, ring up the register, count up the change, and hand it to you?
And really - if you're handling food or near food - do you really want them handling coins/notes?
There is no way cash is faster.
Apparently US doesn't have NFC everywhere and you still have that old magnetic swipe thing? I'm assuming that will change soon though, when you guys upgrade. But yeah, definitely easier/faster.
The only shops around here that still take cash only are very low value shops, or a few Asian restaurants who everybody assumes are just doing tax evasion...lol.
In fact, at a recent popup food stall in Pyrmont - they had big signs saying "Card Only" - probably because they didn't want the safety risk of lots of small merchants handling large amounts of cash - or the possible food/health/safety violations.
And even in Coles (one of our two major supermarkets) - a lot of checkouts are Card Only - so that people using cash don't hold things up.
I had a MasterCard with NFC, which was a pleasure to use at the few stores that supported it. But most stores only had swipe-type terminals at the time. (I have three other credit cards, none of which ever had NFC.)
The current version of this card has a chip, and the NFC was removed. The US is standardizing on chips (but without the PINs that make them secure), not on NFC. The chip transactions are horribly slow, much slower than a swipe. From a usability standpoint, it's a step backwards.
And so what if you replace your card? Nothing happens. Credit cards are the safest possible payment type - a 5 minute phone call and they'll remove the charges and refund your money and even give you a new card number if you want. How much easier can it get? With cash you have no recourse.
By "quick" transactions, I mean craigslist, rural areas or similar scenarios that don't have the infrastructure or are too small to justify the transaction fees. If you're buying something for a few bucks from a street vendor, cash is probably best.
But less anonymous.
When I book hotels through Amex's FHR portal, I get upgraded nearly every time into suites that cost hundreds more than I'm paying. To say nothing of the free nights, hotel credits, and early check-in/late check-out. Makes the annual fee laughable, but you have to be using these cards the right way.
Every time I went to book with my amex platinum, the hotels they offered were way overpriced for the area. I can't help but suspect you were already paying suite prices the moment you decided to book with amex. Either that or I'm just unlucky in the cities I pick to test with.
I'm suspicious of this too ... It's very easy to get discounts and upgrades on rooms when you start with the rack rate anyway ... can the grandparent provide some additional details or examples ? I'm genuinely curious.
I am personally a starwoods member and starwoods AMEX holder and I do typically get minor upgrades (basic room class upgraded to just-better-than-basic) as a matter of course, but it never has anything to do with what card I use - rather it is based on my current points/status with SPG ...
In fact, SPG/StarwoodAMEX is my only frequent flyer or club or membership that I have - I don't bother with any frequent flyer memberships (even when I do, in fact, fly routes/airlines frequently) and I don't join any other clubs. There absolutely is a savings/benefit to be had but I never feel that it outweighs the mental overhead and complication.
I could perhaps see "upgrading" from Starwoods AMEX to AMEX Platinum in order to get all the lounge access and the instant low-tier status at all hotels and airlines - that's one of the benefits, right ?
It honestly pains me to hear that. It's like someone saying "I saw $100 on the street but didn't feel that its value outweighed having to lean over."
Frequent flier miles are super simple (just put your number when booking the ticket) and very rewarding. It's idiotic to not collect them.
I recently returned a pair of earphones that gave me buyer's regret. I called CSR, filled out a form, emailed it back to them, and shipped with my package upon their approval. In a few weeks, I got the full $300 back as a check. Not quite 48 hours, but my experience has almost always been good. Even when I claim for a few dollars.
Here the guarantee against faulty goods is a minimum of 2 years. It's on the seller, not the manfuacturer, to repair or replace it if something goes wrong. I'd expect most stores will just straight up give you a refund for something like this.
This would generally be the first option, yes, even in the USA.
Typically you will be bounced around from hotline to hotline until you are worn out, or they tell you yes/no refund.
With a credit card company that has a decent level of respect for you as a customer, you call them, dispute the payment, and the credit card company handles the rest, ESPECIALLY under $25.
I dropped a phone once and cracked the screen. Since it was within 90 days, I did a claim through American Express and it took 24 hours for it to be processed. I didn't have to send it back or jump through any hoops. I don't understand why Chase wanted you to ship the cable to them?
The company refuses to return any money, so I try a chargeback through Amex. They refuse the chargeback all three times in their dispute resolution process, even for the six days I paid for but didn't use. After begging, the rental company returns the cost of 6 unused days. I never see any other money, not for the 1 day the car was disabled and no compensation for ending up late to my own wedding.
Shit happens, but if Amex can't even refund me my 6 unused days in this situation, I don't know what they can do.
>Others nodded in agreement. “I’d probably use this,” said another, pulling out a blue-tinged credit card. “An Amex says you’re rich, but this says you’re interesting.”
Where did they find these people? When did using the CSR become a statement? Everyone I know got it for the free money, and uses whatever card gets the most points for whatever purchase.
Edit: reading more, it looks like that rate is only for purchasing travel through their site. Not worth it.
The usual cash-back card I point people to is the Citi Double Cash 2% flat with no annual fee -- didn't realize the Fidelity went Visa!
I'm always super impressed with the speed that the notifications come through when I'm checking out somewhere. I'll get a notification on my phone over a flaky 4G connection before the CC reader pops up the 'Approved' screen. Lot of computers talking to each other to make that happen...
Similary when my card was canceled last night after the fradulent transaction I got a notification before I even got off the phone with the fraud agent that the replacement cars number had been added to my Apple Pay. Pretty cool!
I've toyed with other cards that give higher rates, but those that I've looked at are always for restricted categories.
5X rotating bonus categories on Freedom.
5X airfare on Amex Platinum.
3X travel and dining on Sapphire Reserve.
1.5X non-bonusable spend on Freedom Unlimited.
I haven't averaged my return but its, uh, high :) I feel better about the time spent since its sort of a hobby.
That means if you spend > $6000/yr on travel/dining (which includes uber/lyft/taxis and hotels/airbnbs besides the usual), you're going to come out ahead of the $150 fee ($450 fee - $300 travel credit) as compared to a no-fee 2% cash back card. The $300 travel credit won't count, so change that $6k to $6.3k. This is well within reason for a lot of white collar folks.
---
CSR is great if you can redeem through their portal. I mostly travel in Asia and Europe where discount airlines don't seem to be in either chase or Amex's travel portals. The traditional carrier flights they offer are usually 2-3x more expensive than the AirAsias of the world.
1: http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/investing/accounts_produ...
2: 1 MR = 1.25 cents deposited in Schwab account
Does anyone really think owning a credit card makes you interesting? Especially one that is produced for the masses? (at least the ones who can afford the $ amount for it....)
Almost every single friend/acquaintance I know has _that_ card and no one thinks each other is more interesting because of it. It was essentially for the 100,000 points (+ travel perks)
I'm ashamed of myself now.
It's just a thick card because it was one of the original pin & chips. It's old. The annual fee is $90. That's less than most people pay per month for cable TV.
I'm not sure why it gets so many looks, but I will admit most people just carry bank cards in this area.
The first one was the Sapphire Preferred, which is presumably what the person you replied to was talking about; the Sapphire Preferred appears to have a $95 annual fee (compared to $450 on the Sapphire Reserve), lower minimum limit, and lower requirements for approval.
Plus, in my experience, most of my friends have it, so it's kind of like a... "ooh you got one too?" social experience.
(As far what the card is? No one cares.)
Fun fact, Silian Rail is actually Garamond Classico SC if you want the full effect.
(1) Lost US Airways lounge access from the Amex platinum (merger).
(2) Lost Continental as a transfer partner for MR (merger).
(3) Lost Continental lounge access from the Amex platinum (merger).
(4) Lost Delta lounge guest access.
(5) Saw serious devaluations in Aeroplan for MR.
(6) Saw serious devaluations in Delta for MR (no more 50% transfer bonuses).
(7) Saw serious devaluations in BA for MR (transfer 1:1 with 50% bonuses to 1:0.8 with occasional bonuses).
(8) No more points lending (you used to be able to transfer more than you had if you earned them back within a year, otherwise they'd bill you).
(9) Lost JetBlue co-brand card.
(10) Lost Costco co-brand card.
(11) Saw Plenti flop, and I haven't really heard much of Bluebird.
A few years ago, you needed 120,000 Amex points for a first-class round-the-world flight with no fuel surcharges and 2 stopovers in addition to your destination. That price has pretty much doubled in points and gone up 100x in cash. It's just not as rewarding as it used to be.
On the other hand, Chase jumped in, offered lower-fee cards ($95 for Preferred vs $175 for Amex PRG) with more valuable transfer partners -- especially before the United devaluation -- and large signup bonuses. They were friendlier, less stodgy and offered a better value proposition overall in 2011 with the Sapphire Preferred. Then they upped the stakes with the Reserve.
Amex should be worried.
also, i remember amex had exclusive deals with a few ultra high end retailers, Nieman Marcus, for one, and those are out--eg, so up until about 10 years ago, that was the only credit card accepted at NM.
I don't fly a lot, and cash back is just simpler even though it is not as min/max as getting miles. I use the little bit of Venture redemptions paying for Uber/Lyfts.
I've looked at the higher end paid for cards, but I might only fly 4x year, and they have not really seemed worth it.
When we traveled to Italy 12 years ago, we took travelers' checks. The local banks would shake their heads and point at the ATM. As you say, getting free travelers' checks don't matter if you can't cash them.
It used to be standard advice to put some travelers' checks in your sock drawer (or wherever) to have some emergency money on hand that wasn't easily stolen. I calculated how much money was lost by having travelers checks for 31 years instead of sitting in a bank and it was about $3000 at 5%. Hard to find in these times but not until recently.
1. Failed negotiation with CostCo and losing the CostCo credit business.
2. The United and Continental merger that signed the death of the United / Amex relationship as all of that credit business moved to Chase and United was removed as a redemption partner, which was the number one membership rewards partner by a long-shot.
3. The loss of JetBlue as a partner that demotivated Amex in the affluent NYC credit theatre.
There were many other mistakes made, but those three had a compounding effect on Amex's negotiating leverage to earn transactions, carry cards, and to offer valuable rewards that drive member sentiment.
That's it. Three moves, each on their own survivable, but in concert essentially destroyed a well-balanced equation.
The question is, how will they catapult out of this?
They could sign a deal with Amazon to provide a Prime card that gives the cardholder $0 Amazon Prime when they use the card.
EDIT: I'm not suggesting that this is the ONLY benefit, just something comparable to the previous Costco arrangement they had.
But yeah, throw some extra points/cash back in there as well. I'd go for that in a heartbeat, and so would a lot of the demographic they're currently losing.
In Q4 2016 (I think) DiscoverIT was 5% on Amazon purchases, which is equally good, but then the Chase Prime Visa also became 5%, so there's no advantage to the Synchrony card whatsoever.
I have the original Blue Cash, that I've refused to trade in because the new versions are no where close. The rules are a little wonky... 1% cash back on groceries, gas, and drug stores until you spend $6500, then 5% back after that. Other purchases are .5% / 1%. All with no annual fee.
One thing that bothers me is AMEX says you don't get the cash back if you use a digital wallet. So, does that mean Apple Pay? Why would they add that restriction?
Millennials tend to not want to carry a gaggle of cards.
When I use Amex, almost universally people comment that my card looks cool and take it and play with it. But whenever I recommend Amex to someone, it is always met with "but I won't be able to use it everywhere", generally they are talking about the US, but the same sentiment applies abroad also.
Its true, when I am outside the US, I can't use Amex, I have to use my Venture card. How much of the drop can be attributed to the fact that now say in a country like Brazil, even people selling packs of gum from mobile tables accept MC and Visa? How many more millennials travel abroad? How many want to use the same card in whatever country the find themselves in and not have to worry?
PIN: Insert card, 1234, enter.
Phone: Insert card, wait for notification, unlock phone, select notification, confirm purchase, wait for confirmation to get back.
Plus, if you're somewhere without cell reception or your phone battery is dead, what do you do?
I think it's actually smart, they're not likely to earn much money from those shops anyway and it's a good way to increase their footprint (before that they were only accepted in department stores and supermarkets basically).
Like, why? Ill give up all my rewards to have an anxiety free payment experience.
In the maybe 5% of cases where Amex isn't accepted, this is the experience:
Me: hands over Amex Vendor: Oh sorry, we don't take Amex. Me: hands over Chase visa Vendor: Thanks!
Edit: this is really a question better answered with words than a downvote.
"A decent card works 100% with all purchase categories for rewards. Otherwise what's the point?"
I do find it slightly annoying that I have to have a backup, but it's fairly rare that I need it, and the tradeoff is worth it for me.
I find it strange people are down voting what seems like an honest question about a pretty utilitarian matter.
I've tried. Everyone else is simply anti-consumer, to the point of being nearly fraudulent. Amex on the other hand generally "just works" how you would expect when something comes up or when you need to do something.
I agree - if there were never any problems ever, who cares. Go with the cheapest zero fee Visa and be happy.
The experiences I've had recently with multiple Visa issuers have led me to cancel those cards, and now I keep exactly one Amex as my primary, and a backup Visa just in case it's not accepted somewhere. I tend to avoid those businesses if possible.
Amex is so far and away better on their customer protection/service it's not even really a competition. They are playing a different ballgame.
Ignoring chargebacks, anti-consumer practices to collect additional fees, etc. - just something as simple as losing a credit card and needing a replacement sent is eye opening. A typical Visa/MC (even a so called premium card) will take a week. If you're lucky. Good luck if you happen to be traveling, have fun dealing with a 90 minute phone call involving an escalation to a manager. Amex will overnight you a new card to a random third world country with a 5 minute phone call.
It's stuff like that which keeps me firmly in the Amex fold. If/when they start screwing that part of their offering up, I'll switch instantly. So far their competition has a long way to come. The last two credit cards I've signed up for (for promotions) I've canceled within 60 days due to horrific anti-consumer - and in my opinion - entirely fraudulent business practices. I refuse to do business with folks who actively are trying to rip me off.
For people who are willing to jump through hoops and make a credit card issuer's problem theirs - amex is not the choice for you. For folks who think their bank should work on their behalf and not be something I have to set a calendar reminder for in order to remember stuff? Amex is the choice.
I actually get angry thinking of my last Visa experience (Google Credit) - it was so anti-consumer I can't even believe it's legal.
Counterpoint: I've had a Citi Premier Mastercard since 2008 and have lost it several times over that period. Every single time I call the conversation is sub-5 minutes and I ALWAYS have a new card in hand within 24 hours, including the time my wallet was stolen in London.
What's worse - if your foreign transaction is in any other currency than USD, they convert twice: once from the original currency into USD, and then again from USD into GBP. They only charge you 3% once, but you do suffer from their internal, presumably self-serving exchange rates twice.
This is in an environment where there are many UK credit cards offering fee-free foreign transactions at the "true" (no spread) exchange rate, and many more offering true exchange rate + less than 1%.
The Amex offering is laughably poor in comparison.
Chase isn't winning because Amex is too snobby or due to "cachet." They're winning because the Platinum rewards are inferior to the CSR, even after the recent updates. In fact, Amex did probably the stupidest thing possible by increasing the annual fee precisely when they're under threat.
As much as I like the Platinum, it's hard for me to justify keeping it this year when the CSR is so rewarding. And that has nothing to do with wanting to avoid appearing snobby (after all, I do love the metal CSR).
For a decade before last year, I used an Amex card exclusively. Then I switched to a Sapphire card for the great signing bonus and better rewards. (It's also metal, and as much as I'd like to pretend that doesn't sway me, it does.) Now I find out that this is a "thing" and that I'm just another part of the overall trend.
Oh well. If Amex successfully counters this move, I'll happily return. Their customer service has been spectacular the few times I needed them.
None of the places I've lived have accepted American Express, so all branded/points-earning Amex cards are basically useless to me.
If your rent is higher than that, of course, it becomes a better deal.
I quit smoking a little over a year ago. Switched to vaping. Apparently 2016 was the year that everybody did that. I thought I was just making the choice to live a little healthier, but it turns out the invisible hand of Trendy Stuff swept me up. :)
Yes, just like this advertisement seems to have been hidden and camouflaged as a New York Times article...
This is going to sound stupid, but the Preferred/Reserve lines are fun to use. They have a metal core which makes the card feel heavy. Cashiers would always comment on the card's weight. It feels satisfying when you drop it on the table at a restaurant. The perks aren't the best in the industry, but they're good enough, and the incredible amount of points you got when you switched over lowered the barrier to entry enough to make the move.
Without a doubt it's the "coolest" card in my wallet, and probably will be until I get an Amex Black (yeah, right.)
If too many cards are metal, it becomes less special. The heft of the metal makes me want to spend more, but not if every card has the same heft!
That said, the addition of chips to US credit cards has made that more difficult.
The next day they had a replacement card waiting for me at the hotel lobby. I still don't know how they pulled it off.
In that instant, I became a lifetime customer. AFAIK, no other credit card firm offers the same level and quality of service.
My wife worked for a flight booking company in the UK. They absorbed the charge for all credit cards except Amex, who were far higher.
In that moment I swore never to sign up to Amex.
Me, I cancelled my AmEx the second time they flagged my card-present $30 grocery store transaction as fraud. There was no other hint of fraud on the account, but my buying groceries 100 miles from my home (in California) was enough to trip their algorithm.
I could forgive the false positive, but AmEx's customer experience here is terrible. They declined the transaction and then called my call phone from an unrecognized caller ID. The call came from an Indian call center with very poorly trained staff reading a script at me to verify I had the card.
So here I am in a stressful situation: can't buy my groceries, embarrassed my card is declined. And they decide that's the time to outsource to some lowest-bidder call center. Talk about contempt for the customer.
I now always carry a spare card from a different bank although I'm not certain I wouldn't have issues if I suddenly started putting big charges on a card I rarely use.
I asked about the guarantee to get me a new card within 24 hours, as I was in some far away-ish vacation town I was ok with them getting it to my hotel when I would return to Rio two days later. Never received a replacement.
I got it back home in Sweden when I returned. Never bothered with them since.
I refuse to use Chase anything because of how poorly they treat their lower income customers (staging transactions to maximize overdraft fees, etc.)
When I'm someplace that won't take AMEX, I use Discover. If they won't take Discover I use my credit union Visa.
Yep, a true pain to explain to someone how pulling that stunt is legal. About the same fun as banks cashing checks in order to maximize overdraft fees.
AMEX also does the Bluebird cards which are pretty nice for poor folks since you can do direct deposit to the card itself and it has no charge refilling at Walmart.
I do love the way the CSR looks and feels though, and it's essential to have a Visa or MasterCard when traveling as so many places only accept those two.
Chase is doing great, I will keep both for the foreseeable future. It's going to take time to completely steal me from Amex though, they've been doing right by me for more than 10 years.
That kind of support and service can be a huge difference maker to people who have experienced or can perceive such niche cases.
The auspicious "New York Times", to me, would have a standard to present more inquisitive spins into story like this. What a shame. I was waiting for the punchline then realized at the end that the punch was thrown, just never registered.
To summarize this article, it starts off with a claim that Amex executives are worried that Chase is taking more "young professionals". Then the article discusses why that happens in this paragraph:
> A credit card, mystifyingly, had suddenly become cool. And what really got under Amex executives’ skin was that Chase was succeeding by, essentially, copying the American Express playbook and chasing the same up-and-coming elites who had traditionally joined Amex’s ranks.
"mystifyingly" being the key word here. There is no investigation, no speculation, no data gathering, no journalism. There is a claim that a Chase card "seems to be gaining preference" in the young professionals crowd. Why is this a thing? Why is Chase being preferred over Amex? Is Chase even actually being preferred over Amex? Is there a poll, at least?
The only paragraph that attempts to answer any of the questions is this disjointed one in the middle of rambles:
> “The message we send is, this isn’t your father’s credit card,” said Pam Codispoti, who created the Chase Sapphire Reserve after 18 years at Amex. “For millennials, travel might mean taking an Uber to a hole-in-the-wall restaurant in Chinatown, and then riding the subway to karaoke, and then catching a taxi home. So we’re going to give you accelerated travel points on all that. This is a card for accumulating experiences.”
Other than that, there's no presentation of facts, but a rambling of speculations and hearsay. I feel as if I've been served an advertisement for Chase on thin veil. Do I have to start vetting articles from the "New York Times" for quality too?
How disappointing.
A co-worker did that with his rewards Visa for a long time when AmEx was the only credit card accepted in Costco warehouses.
1. https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/credit-card-details/citi.a...
It details the efforts of someone who managed to get a Sapphire Reserve card after dressing up as a Sapphire Reserve card for Halloween and sending a photo of it to Chase:
> “I’m kind of a credit-card—maybe junkie is not the right word—but I’m a credit-card enthusiast,” says Mary Xu, a San Francisco cybersecurity manager. In pursuit of points, she spends more than $1,000 a year on annual fees for high-end cards.
> She was so disappointed to be rejected for the Sapphire Reserve last October that she spent hours constructing a costume of the card out of cardboard. She sent the bank a photo of herself dressed up, hoping for a second chance. She was approved about three months later.
One of my hobbies has been maximizing rewards over the last few years. I've had the Amex Gold, but Platinum rewards have never looked good enough to justify it for me. I'll keep the CSR until something better comes along, but it's easily the best card I've had.
Part of Amex's problem is the ease of access to information about which cards are actually good. They can't rely on image anymore. I don't buy into the article's argument about the CSR making the purchaser "interesting" at all.
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/churning/comments/65e347/amex_chall...
- Excellent travel insurance
- 15-20% discount on car rentals with Hertz and Avis, priority service including complimentary upgrades, and no extra fees for super cover
Additionally their fraud detection and customer service is great. If my card is stolen or there are unauthorized transactions, they'll sort it out immediately and get Anne's card in your hands within the day. As a European who travels a lot in Europe and across the Atlantic, there's no other card that offers the same.
Then there's all the rest, VIP access, airport lounges, concierge service etc. Those are nice extras.
I pay everything on my Amex. Some smaller shops don't take Amex, but most places I've been seem to accept it. The few times I have to fall back to a Visa or MC I struggle to recall the pin.
They've also got an opt-in plan where any time you rent a car with your card they charge you a $25 flat free, and then that buys you coverage that runs primary so you don't have to claim against your own car insurance at all.
Another good feature is I've sometimes had to return the cars in different cities, and every time they waived the fee because of the preferred status as a card carrying member. These things add up for sure.
As far as I know, the insurance also works with any agency, so not just Avis and Hertz, so there's money to save even if you go for a more "fun" agency like Sixt, with nicer cars.
Disclaimer: You'll want to verify all this with Amex though, but this is what I've been told and what I've read in the ToS.
Got burnt by that last summer when I wrecked a rented truck (on my AmEx Platinum) on vacation for the girlfriend's birthday. :/
Closing the actual physical Amex offices also was a big step down (I've been a member since 97).
I would not want to bet on Amex at this point -- losing Costco, competition from Chase, and now Citi pushing to expand their own cards.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a lower-merchant-fees challenger now that everyone has a mobile phone; you could probably do something which presents at POSes as a credit card, handles a bunch of auth back through the customer's own mobile phone connection (but encrypted/authenticated), presenting a time of use credential which is matched by the POS while appearing as a regular credit card. Building something like that which costs the merchant <1%, and maybe which provides customers with a lot more purchasing/receipt info (for company purchasing cards).
If Goldman Sachs (or Apple) offered a 5% return to purchases using Apply Pay, I'd use it.
If I could give out purchasing "cards" to all my team which relied on Apple Pay but brought back realtime stats, that'd be a win too (especially if it did things like track capital purchases, warranties, management, etc.)
It was still an okay experience but not what it used to be.
The non-fee version is only 3% at restaurants.
Though in general lounge benefits -- unless you're getting a dedicated lounge operated by the program giving you access -- are not something worth going for. Back when I had status on American Airlines, I and many other people learned how worthless the alliance-partner lounge benefits can be: in theory, as an AA Executive Platinum, I'd have access to a rather nice British Airways lounge when connecting to an AA transatlantic flight in Philadelphia, but BA's policy was basically "all times are peak times (so we can turn you away), if there's anyone in here it's at capacity (so we can turn you away), and if there's nobody in here we'll close (so we can turn you away)".
Amex Platinum (MR) has pretty bad values for point redemption -- it's a good card to have for access to lounges and for certain airline tickets, but it's generally not the best return for most purchases. If you're eligible, there's a 2.5% back USAA credit card which is probably the cash-back winner, otherwise SPG seems to win for value, but I've seen some 5-7% return cases for the CSR too (Asian mileage tickets in C or F).
There's also the fact that personal Amex PLT is $550/yr (now), with ~$200/yr in Uber reimbursements spread out over the year and a few other things. The biggest benefit of PLT is the Centurion Lounge, which for US domestic travel is nice if you're in those airports, but for international it's Priority Pass Select on both CSR and PLT. CSR is $450/yr with $300/yr in credit for virtually any travel, so it's net $150/yr. PP Select is worth that alone, and a bunch of other benefits.
I'd drop Amex Platinum if I wanted to drop a card (and I actually just have the OPEN Small Business version; I don't have a personal PLT).
I switched to Chase.
Disclaimer: I am european, Amex doesn't exist here and you can't pay anything anywhere with that. Never heard about Sapphire before today. Maybe you guys don't have VISA and mastercard on your side of the Atlantic?
Yes, we have both Visa and MC over here.
Visa/MC are Android. Samsung (Chase), LG (Citi), HTC (BofA) are the hardware makers (card issuers) but they're all delivering the same Android (Visa/MC)
I don't have an analogy for Discover...
> I don't have an analogy for Discover...
chuckle
Either way, I get very good customer support from American Express. Also way higher credit limit and points. My other card is a Citibank card. I never use it because I despise citibank.
Credit cards are usually issued by a card issuer (bank) and are co-branded with one of the card associations. For example, the Sapphire card is a particular credit card issued by Chase Bank, but is a Visa card.
American Express (Amex) is a little bit weird in that they act as both the issuer and the association for many of their cards. (They are less widely accepted than Visa or Mastercard).
See this American guide to choosing a credit card[1]. Factors that people consider include interest rate, amount of signing bonus, rewards (such as a percentage cash back on each purchase or a percentage of frequent flyer miles on each purchase), yearly fee to use the card, and other services that come with membership such as warranty protection, concierge, discounts, and reserved tickets for events.
What cards are available to a person depends highly on their credit history and income.
Because credit cards barely exist on that side of the Atlantic.
Credit cards, on the other hand, are connected to a revolving line of credit. When a merchant charges the card, the issuer is essentially loaning the amount of the charge to the cardholder. (With most credit cards, interest only starts accruing a month after the charge; so people who pay their credit card bills in full are not paying interest.)
In the US, credit cards were introduced as a convenient alternative to checks or cash before debit cards existed. Because of cultural momentum, rewards, and fraud protection, they are as widely used as debit cards, if not more so.
It just so happens Chase has been pushing out cards that benefits my lifestyle the most.
*edit grammr
That 6% grocery cash back, ungh, so good.
Read the SlickDeals thread:
https://slickdeals.net/f/9036199-chase-sapphire-reserve-100k...
I must admit that this article made me want to also try the Chase Sapphire Reserve but for now I probably won't.
The best part is that they realized you can keep the people from finding out that they are being royally ripped off by giving every single 30 card toting person the special feeling that they are the one getting back more than they put in.
What you are talking about may be well be true but let's be very clear here that transaction fees above that number are ripoff for gimmicks, not the equivalent of what cash handling would cost.
This is just paying attention to how you spend your money and being informed about the choices you make. If you are going to get a credit card, you might as well both know what you are getting into and get the best thing for you that you can. Kinda like any other loan contract (after all, credit cards are a short-term loan).
I suppose it depends on definitions.
I like to think I'm smart, but I'm unsure whether I'd meet your definition of wealthy. However, I do have experience of widely disparate income brackets. Growing up, and during my first few years on my own as an adult, I've had experience of living at or below the poverty line. Now, I'm above the 95th percentile for income in the US.
And the single biggest difference is in how I view tradeoffs of time/effort versus money. For example, I pay my utility bills online with a credit card, and the company charges me a "convenience fee" to do that. When I was younger, I had to count every penny in order to be sure I could make ends meet. Now? Avoiding the fee would be a net loss. I can estimate how many minutes of time it would take me to go dig out my checkbook, write a check, put it in an envelope, find a stamp, go to a mailbox and drop it in. And I can work out, given my salary, how much those minutes are worth: they're worth more than the "convenience fee".
The same is true of many of the "service fees" you're deriding here. I've been in a position where avoiding the fees was of extreme importance, but now I'm in a position where avoiding the fees is literally a money-losing proposition in many cases. The result is that I simply don't bother below a certain dollar amount (and that dollar amount would frighten my younger self).
And to be honest, it's a guilty pleasure to not care about those fees. When I was younger, I didn't realize what a sense of freedom there was in being able to just not care about a few dollars here and there.
Now that this trend is shifting, merchants aren't seeing the value in accepting an expensive Amex card, and are deciding to go without. But Amex still needs something to separate them from the rest of the pack, lest they become just another commodity card. Once that happens (and the merchant network is slow to adapt), users may just switch to the Visa or MasterCard they're already carrying and forget about Amex altogether.
I also use Android Pay, which means nobody can even see what card I use...
* Collect miles? I prefer the Cash back I have with my CC.
* Zero foreign transaction fees is a nice feature.
* Create virtual credit cards is a good feature.
* Travel insurance? Have a better one that any CC could offer me, including air evacuation. Don't need that with my CC and also would be worried about the fine print.
* Lounge Access? If you are a frequent flyer you should have Elite or whatever status anyway, hence I don't need this either. If you really need a card with "lounge access", Diners Club is still available in some European countries for less than US$ 100 per year. (Dines Club Lunge access included)
If I miss something with my CC then it is bicoin access: https://bitpay.com/visa/
If you need a "prestigious" card, try here: http://creditcardforum.com/blog/most-prestigious-credit-card...
AH, Just saw. 100 bucks for, at least previously, 100k miles is not so bad. Most "prestigious" cards I know have fees from 400-1000 USD
"Introductory Annual Fee of $0 the first year, then $95."
Any other Amex? It's just a credit card, who gives a shit.