Google accuses Uber of creating a fake company in order to steal its tech
businessinsider.com
businessinsider.com
But there's a lot of detailed back & forth between the attorneys and judge in those links.
Well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12315205
Top comment noted how the company looked like a “quick flip”.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150709120858/http://ot.to/
I think this is the place:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3678268,-73.7132536,3a,75y,1...
:)
This is going to be a very interesting case.
In that case, I found it easier to decide when the question was "is this one guy responsible for everything that happened?" rather than the more complicated "is DHS as a whole responsible?"
"Tough shit for Uber. Shrug."
I honestly can't see this as an outcome; either Uber's wrong in they completely and miserably failed due dilligence, or they're wrong in that they actively coerced [him] to create a shell company with Google assets so it could "launder" them into Uber.
We can't say for certain which it is at this point. All we know is that Uber's trying their level best not to say which by refusing discovery and worming around the issue. That alone signals to me that the preponderance of evidence bar is going to be a fairly easy one for Google to clear here. There's just too many dots that even when left unconnected draw a pretty clear picture of what happened.
There is nothing wrong with Uber talking to Levandowsky while he was at Google, and nothing wrong for him to do it as long as he didn't violate his NDA. If Uber said, "hey, we really want to build a strong team for self driving, you should leave Google and come here", that's totally fine as well.
It's even fine if they say "start a separate company and recruit a team, and we'll either invest or buy it".
Google has a high bar here. They have to show their assets were "laundered" into Uber. And they have to show that Uber knew it and encouraged it. In the first case they'd only have a case against Levandowsky and a very limited one against Uber. It's only in the second where Uber's liability becomes substantial.
That's... not how discovery works...
Being stupid and/or incompetent isn't illegal. Yet.
This is only if you unknowingly purchased stolen goods.
More generally, the law recognizes the concepts of negligence, reckless endangerment, a "reasonable person," the idea that you're responsible if you "knew or should have known" about some problem, etc., all of which I would classify as specific ways of stupidity and incompetence being illegal. Of course if you keep your stupidity and incompetence entirely to yourself, you're fine. But if you act stupid or incompetent in a way that affects other people or the public, chances are high that you're in legal trouble.
Should the various allegations made against the firm prove true, and and it seems like there's a good chance of that, a good number of people need to face criminal charges, the company needs to be shut down and its assets auctioned off, and the investors need to end up with nothing because they abrogated their corporate governance responsibilities.
Do taxi companies leverage cozy relationships with taxi regulators to restrict competition so they can overcharges customers and increase their profits? The answer to that is almost certainly yes, and provably yes in certain markets.
Does that mean every business that is trying to break the taxi monopoly is automatically one of the good guys, and run ethically? The answer to that is almost certainly no.
Corporations abuse the public and individual persons because corporate charters are hardly ever revoked. Why is there so much horror over killing off a brand that has become a byword for mendacity? Why should we glorify corporations that sweep all before them, but treat them like helpless infants when they march deliberately towards a tragic end?
I'm sure your concern for the people that work there is sincere, but realistically, they can get other jobs, although having worked for Uber might involve answering awkward questions about what they did there. Good.
There's something wrong with society where human life is considered disposable for a wide variety of reasons but the dissolution of an organization is greeted with horror. If the allegations against Uber are true, kill it.
Of course that's a bit hard to do, but would it be a great tragedy if the less efficient outcome was that for the next 10 years your ride arrived in 6 minutes rather than 5? Across a few billion rides that's a loss of efficiency, but efficiency maximization isn't the only good in life.
Do advocates of free markets as engines of creation and disruption really have so little faith?
Going forward, I don't think we'll ever see another taxi company with the balls and cash that Uber has (or had).
If we're going to put our faith in markets and free enterprise, then we need to believe that the market will find a way to deal with the gap of Uber. To do otherwise is to view the organization as indispensable, which is even worse than laissez-faire market worship; it's the objectivist veneration of a producer (vs. looters), and bowing to Uber's will because we think we cannot live if it shrugs.
There are plenty of other people in this world with balls and cash.
I know nothing of such worldly matters; I am but a humble priest of Eris.
People who leave companies like Uber due to moral considerations deserve more regard then those who stayed.
Point being, organizations are not just meaningless legal abstractions. They coordinate people. An evil organization will make "normal people" do evil things, or morally-neutral things that add up to evil. In that case you absolutely want to destroy the organization itself.
So?
Uber and Lyft throwing a hissy fit and leaving Austin shows that replacing them isn't actually as traumatic as you think.
And stomping the investors flat would send a nice signal that maybe you shouldn't invest in companies whose primary competitive advantage is that they break the law.
At the end of the day, however, this is all part of negotiating tactics between Uber and Google.
However, frankly, there are still scams being advertised on Adwords and I would argue that we should separate the scam category from the illegal pharma category.
The truth is that the vast majority of the half billion dollars they were penalized for earning was payments from companies who were advertising and fulfilling generic drugs from cheaper countries such as India (or even New Zealand!). The people running these companies may be 'criminals' -- you could make that case -- but I have an easier time making the case that they are running an ethical business that helps lower and middle class americans get the medicine they need at a fraction of the cost (and sometimes simply without explaining to a third-party that their dick doesn't work).
HN is visited by people in tech who are naturally interested more in what happens with technology companies. Therefore there is more focus on Uber then on Wells Fargo.
How does bragging make a difference? A crime is a crime regardless of bragging or not.
I think your second paragraph makes a lot more sense.
People who think this is bad thing, wants (and have absolute right) to put attention on previously praised crooks so that opposite message (it is bad behavior and you might get punished) gets attention too.
2.) If you brag about your success and break-the-rules-strategy, people like you less and get more angry with you. Once you get caught, they get happy, talk about it and wants to see you punished more then as if you did not bragged. That is how humans work.
Bragging isn't the problem, if what they're doing is illegal, then it should be handled accordingly. They might be thinking that they are thinking out of the box, and you might have to break some laws, but those laws are actually blocking progress. So, not necessarily a bad thing depending on the law being broken.
AIUI there's no evidence that actually happened. It's more like they were marking some transactions as low-risk rather than medium-risk when they should have been following guidelines that allowed the transactions to be considered as low-risk or medium-risk, but under slightly different criteria.
I think it's pretty obvious what happened but there are a lot of folks who want to whistle and look the other way.
There are a lot of ways and they're more obvious than what you imply.
Since everyone basically agrees that Levandowski downloaded these files from google, Occam's Razor suggests that the guy who knowingly stole the files provided them along. Doesn't rule out a different sort of malfeasance, but certainly it's worth exploring that avenue to the fullest.
...and that's what makes all Uber/Lev's avoidance look as damning as it is. If the stuff they're not saying cleared them, they'd present more of it - enough to make their case.
You know those golden parachutes that piss everyone off? They give you those in return for promising not talk about anything shady going on near the top
Judge to Waymo: U have no proof that shows a chain
of Levandowski saying to anybody here’s the
trade secrets.
Unless Waymo presents something like this, I don't see how this trial benefits them. Sure they can make a big fuss an get Levandowski kicked off self driving cars / Lidars, but that won't stop Uber from moving forward with their program.It casts doubt/worry/issues on the legal legitimacy of Uber's tech. Employees/Researchers won't want to become embroiled in this, if they ever want to license the tech I'm sure "what about google?" will come up and need to be mitigated.
It gets Alphabet and the newly founded Waymo a lot of "free" publicity, helping to form their public image as a car company. (Wronged by the evil uber)
Maybe a little vindictive, but I'm sure their lawyers would rather his compensation burn than be used against them.
Why would an employee ever fear another entity personally suing them? Was there a mass exodus from Google or Samsung after Apple's successful infringement suit in 2012?
Why would an employee performing genuinely novel work worry about her work being discredited?
I would expect a culpable employee to divest before his organization got caught. Some members of the Enron C-suite sold their stock before the debt hiding scandal broke. Maybe this is happening in Uber's Otto division; has anyone seen anything like this?
He might be using those docs from his personal laptop to help build Uber's product, or he might just been doing a build at home for Google in his last days there. I don't trust that Googles lawyers descriptions (or Ubers lawyers descriptions), so it will take until the full evidence is out before we can know for sure.
If you look at the details of that allegation, that's not really a feasible assumption (depending on how much stock you put in the details presented). According to Google, he installed custom software to access the files, and the files where in a data store he had no normal access to. From the filing[1]:
In December 2015, Mr. Levandowski specifically searched for and then installed specialized software onto his company-issued laptop in order to access the server that stores these particular files. Once Mr. Levandowski accessed this server, he downloaded the 14,000 files, representing approximately 9.7 GB of highly confidential data. Then he attached an external drive to the laptop for a period of eight hours. He installed a new operating system that would have the effect of reformatting his laptop, attempting to erase any forensic fingerprints that would show what he did with Waymo’s valuable LiDAR designs once they had been downloaded to his computer. After Mr. Levandowski wiped this laptop, he only used it for a few minutes, and then inexplicably never used it again.
1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7dzPLynxaXuQjY3dkllZ2ZKb0k...
Google Drive logs file downloads, so that's how they got those records.
Plenty of enterprises have certificate-based access to their employee network, none of this seems particularly creepy on Google's part.
Testimony: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3515476-Declaration-...
The expert witness report is much less cut and dry: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3515476-Declaration-...
I don't think the expert witness report necessarily demonstrates Levandowski intended to steal the Google/Waymo project files. The Goobuntu distro was installed, which necessitates a reformat from NTFS to ext4 or whatever filesystem it uses.
It sure as hell looks like Levandowski meant to steal the files, especially with his copious 5th Amendment testimony refusals, but it's possible he didn't.
A work laptop that was rarely if ever used is the device in question.
TortoiseSVN was installed to access the repo. If the laptop wasn't normally used, that's a fairly regular thing to do if you want to set up the laptop to get access legitimately.
All the data was downloaded, but reading between the lines, that's just a SVN checkout, which is going to get everything in the repo by default unless you request a specific subdirectory.
A few days later a UDB drive is attached for numerous hours.
A few days after that, another operating system is installed, and the laptop is almost never used again.
All of this can be explained away as benign, but it's also possible it was intended to look that way. This could just as easily be explained as someone trying to access thee data and obscure the fact as it could be someone trying to set up a work laptop they plan to use while away from the office for a few days when they haven't bothered for to set it up for years prior because they had no need.
This would look a lot more damning if Google was asserting that Levandowski was not supposed to have access to the SVN, or had not needed any access to it prior to this point, but unless I'm missing it, they aren't saying that (although they do a good job of making it easy to assume that).
That said, that he set up the company that would later become Otto prior to all this access (with the assurance it would not compete), and also noted to numerous people that he planned to start his own self driving car company prior to the above actions (both according to the original filing though), does cast them in a somewhat different light. That there is evidence of other people that left exporting specific documents from Drive days and/or hours prior to their departure does not look good.
Information omitted that make the testimony one that is obviously presented to do maximum damage:
0) Did Levandowsky have more than one laptop? The testimony cites a laptop he was issue for several months but connected to Google's network only three times over those months he had it. Since he worked at the company during the time, I think it is reasonable to assume that he had more than one laptop and this was one that was issued and never really used.
1) Since this laptop was never really used, it's reasonable that it would get out of date. It's possible that it was used infrequently enough that changes in security policies in the Google autoupdate software would cease to work because it missed a critical security update were a full-reinstall was the simplest path to resolution, especially for a laptop that wasn't well used with data and settings worth preserving. I've seen this situation first hand at prior employers. It especially happens when a critical security update doesn't get applied in time.
2) Was the SVN repository in question one that Levandowsky had a legitimate business need to access? Had he previously accessed that repository on a different laptop that he used more regularly?
3) How many people involved in Google's self driving car program had access to this particular repository? What percent of the self driving engineers does this represent?
4) A Transcend RDF5 card reader was attached to the laptop 3 DAYS AFTER the repository was downloaded. No mention was made about a card inserted into the reader. Was any physical volume ever mounted through the card reader. If so, what kind of physical volume was mounted and how big was it? Was it large enough to store all 9.7 GB of data in the repository? Are there any logs that show files were copied from the laptop to a storage volume, assuming one was ever attached.
5) Was this card reader ever attached to any other device owned by Google that Anthony had access to? Assuming he did attach a storage volume and assuming he did copy files, is it possible that he was just moving files from this device to another one he used? Was this possibility investigated?
6) Five files were exported to his Google Drive on one occasion and another later. The later copied file, a "weekly update", is hardly the type of file that would suggest wrongdoing for anyone whose seen the typical "weekly updates" teams at big companies write. The contents may be sensitive, but they are typically high level and contain few if any details that allow reproducibility. How were those six files accessed later and from what other devices? What's in those files and why are they sensitive/important? How can each file enable a competitor?
There are too many missing dots in that testimony to actually take it seriously, especially since it's been written to maximally insinuate wrongdoing for all three engineers listed.
After reading this testimony, my opinion is that this is absurd and should be dismissed. It's entirely too circumstantial and the forensic "expert" hardly investigated and answered questions that highly relevant to interpreting Levandowsky's actions.
The noted documents that Levandowski "exported to a personal device" happened 22 and 15 days prior to his quitting without notice.
The titles of documents have no bearing on how how damaging they are. This was an assertion of what happened to those documents and when, not what their contents were and how important they were. That should come later. The names themselves should not factor for or against at this point, so it's just as bad to assume they imply innocence as that they imply guilt.
I'm not sure why you are impugning the expert's testimony, I haven't seen anything to imply they were lax in their investigations or were incorrect in their assertions. They testified as to facts they were able to ascertain as to movement of internal private documents, and only as far as they could confirm, which is exactly what they should do. How damaging those documents are and how related they are to the case at hand is for the lawyers to argue.
This is not the entirety of Google case, this is the testimony from one expert witness. How these details interact with other testimony and facts to form a narrative is the important part. A witness could testify "I know nothing" and that doesn't necessarily mean there's no case, just that the witness in question doesn't have much to add. Making an assertion that there is no case because a single witness wasn't as persuasive as you thought they should be is odd.
To the next Lewandowski: "Damn, my laptop got stolen /lost it" Meanwhile hammertime and drop peaces in tens of different trash boxes. Suspicious, but no evidence to prove anything. Stuff happens.
Levandowski already got his money. Waymo could sue him, but what are the damages? Google isn't selling anything, so they can't show impact on their sales volume. (Neither is Uber. Uber's venture into self-driving is probably more to pump up the valuation than to provide a real service, anyway.)
I'm beginning to think that self-driving will be a feature that comes from auto parts companies. You need sensors and actuators, which come from auto parts companies. You need dashboard units, which come from auto parts companies. You need a compute unit, which is just a ruggedized computer packaged for automotive conditions, something that comes from auto parts companies. You need software, which may come from a number of sources. This may not be all that disruptive a technology.
Once that's figured out, the question turns to "Am I buying the car to own? Am I calling it from a mapping application like Uber or Apple Maps? What does the car look like? What new seating arrangements are enabled without the need for a driver? How much better can the entertainment features be when built by a software company instead of a car company? Can the car tell me what's wrong with it, instead of simply illuminating the check engine light? Or better yet, automatically contact the manufacturer to set up a service appointment that works with my calendar?" Etc.
If he comes out of this still holding a big chunk of money, but having to spend several years in prison, is that still "coming out of this really well"? In my view, no.
Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-exec-anthony-levandowski...
I don't know. But it's an interesting case.
It was weirder than that. Levandowski was claiming that Uber couldn't turn information over to Google because it might incriminate Levandowski, when Levandowski wasn't one of the parties in the lawsuit. Unsurprisingly, that didn't fly.
There are a few issues here: 1.) 5A protections don't generally cover the production of existing documents, only testimony (statements, answering questions). 2.) 5A doesn't protect corporations, only individuals. 3.) It's (apparently, per the discussions in the various court filings on this issue) incredibly rare to try to prevent the disclosure of the metadata on a privilege log. (Basically, during discovery, if you find a document that's responsive to the discovery, but think it's privilege from being turned over, you have to provide a report of what the document is, who has it, who has ever seen it, etc. to prove that it remains privileged.). 4.) For someone who isn't a party to the lawsuit to try to assert this is incredibly unusual.
The judge basically called the whole argument bullshit. But it was all related to the document stuff, not Levandowski's testimony/deposition.
Levandowski is an intervenor defendant in this case.
Given that (1) Google is spending a whole lot of money to protect their LIDAR technology in court, (2) Uber spent nearly half a billion dollars apparently to copy it and (3) Google (with their proprietary LIDAR) is the only company -- publicity and press releases aside -- that seems to be actively operating an autonomous fleet in the wild with reasonably few overrides, disengagements or accidents, I'm willing to bet that good LIDAR is actually more important than you're giving it credit for here.
I'm willing to bet that there is a ton more of technology involved in self driving vehicles than you are giving it credit for here.
Not sure why the down votes. There is a lot more technology here than one type of sensor, there ia a huge software stack. Uber clearly paid $500M because they wanted to get access to someone who had been doing it for a decade and had built that stack more than once. Whether Uber thought they were getting Google technology in the deal is the big question of the lawsuit, but it's very possible they just wanted to jumpstart their own effort by buying a team that was already up to speed.
Also, there are soy many regulations and safety rules in the industry, if they can't abolish them (with perfect tech/lobbying) old automakers will win.
Good point, but I think there are many ways to make this work. Two ideas:
1. Contract with a small/failing auto manufacturer who has little to lose (e.g. Mitsubishi).
2. Work with a manufacturer to build vehicles and also license them tech (Chrysler and Honda are interested [0]).
[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2017/01/10/alphabet...
Maybe Google thinks they can drive a wooden stake through the vampire heart of Uber with that LIDAR claim. Perhaps they will if this turns out to be a valid claim.
Did he get straight cash, illiquid uber stock or did he get a big contract with a lot of performance stipulations in it?
1) It would be silly for Uber to blow through their cash that fast and 2) silly to give a new team that had only been together for a month or two a huge pile of cash they could immediately walk away with.
Google's LIDAR technology is obsolete? Didn't Google just come up with a new system that reduces the cost of a LIDAR system by 90% ?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-08/alphabet-...
I've been paying close attention, and the lowest price I've seen has been $300, and I don't believe any solid state lidar has yet to be produced at that price point, despite companies claiming they could more than a year ago.
Continental, the big German auto parts company, bought ASC, and is putting the technology into mass production. Continental says they can get the price way down, and they probably can.
There are also about a half dozen other flash LIDAR startups, some of which might even ship someday.
[1] http://www.advancedscientificconcepts.com/products/peregrine...
https://medium.com/waymo/introducing-waymos-suite-of-custom-...
Anyone have any speculation as to what might happen to Uber if this turns out to be true?
[0]: https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Uber-does-Google-ow...
Then about the bottom employees. Think a minute about what employees are left in that kind of environment and the psychological baggage they might carry.
However you pick your job and you can leave it anytime you want.
Their ultimate success will always be based on their brand and how well they provide their service. Until the last 6 months they did an amazing job at both, they had their apps on many times more phones than any competitor, and their app works amazingly well. Now they've tarnished their brand and might be losing market share, well before the market is completely built out. that's what they should be focusing on.
But the future of cars is really like servers, not ownership, but as a service, you'll just use an app to hail a self-driving car to take you anywhere. Whoever can sell their self-driving tech to car manufacturers will win, Uber probably wants to be the infrastructure that the car companies use to manage their CaaS, and if they win the self-driving first-to-market race, they can bundle their existing fleet management service as a bundle with the tech.
But if someone else wins the self-driving tech, a car manufacturer can buy that, and either self-develop their own fleet management or buy from someone else (it's a lot simpler than self-driving tech, obviously).
And Boeing could easily compete with United and American right now, the extra costs of hiring pilots and crews are minute for them. But it doesn't make sense on many levels. I'm pretty sure car makers will focus on making the self driving tech, and sell it to customers like Uber. Uber will have to win like car rental companies do today, brand and location. If it is installed on the most phones that will winin the near term, at least until how we use our devices entirely changes.
I assume there are a lot of people working for Google who are experts in the tech they helped create but no longer owners of that tech. By that token, Google would really try hard to keep this sort of person from leaving with their tech.
That is their core competency, in fact.
(The regulations', not the search algorithms'. We all know insertion sort violates the 4th amendment)
They don't seem to be backing that clickbait title do they?
I think the backdated form makes sense, more sense they doing something obvious like creating a fake company the 'day' after someone leaves Google.
If it is proved, there should be actual consequence to the executives, including jail
I'm assured by somebody who works in assembly line / factory stuff that ottomotors.com has real and good products. Definitely not fake or Hooli.
I believe no further comment is necessary.