An investigation into the economics of airplane seat reclining | Hacker News Reader

An investigation into the economics of airplane seat reclining

evonomics.com

54 pointsHooke73 comments

I'm happy to not recline my seat when I'm sitting in steerage, unless the human sitting in front of me reclines.

So it's not about making a deal with whomever sits before you; instead, it's about making a deal with everybody in your column and lower row number, at least up to an exit row. All it takes is one recliner to ruin it for everybody.

such is the efficiency of markets.

Exactly. Numerous times over the past two years as I've traveled more for work I've had to out loud say the phrase: "We're all in this together".

Who did you say that to? If it was to the person in front of you, you're being an asshole. Just recline your seat or deal with the reduced space in front of you.

If you want more room between you and the seat in front of you, pay for it. Don't try to guilt the person in front of you to make their own flight uncomfortable for sleeping to please you. That's selfish.

Take it easy.

I've said that to numerous people. I never say that to people in front of me who recline. I deal with it like everyone else does.

The most recent time was during one of the computer outages, someone tried to cut in front of everyone to check a bag. I just calmly said that we're all in this delay together, we all have places to be, and it's nobody's fault at this counter. So just wait like the rest of us.

I actually don't get into conflicts with air travel, but for some reason it triggers others instantly.

Flying without reclining my seat is pure torture to me. I find the default vertical position of the seats deeply uncomfortable. What if all seats had a slightly reclined angle already?

Flying in a reclined seat is pure torture to me.

Flying is pure torture to me (being tall).

Try being tall and wide...

A frame that's great for setting picks in a basketball game is less than ideal in a narrow coach seat, especially on the aisle...

What if we grouped the plane into two sections: those who want to recline, and those who do not?

If you're a recliner behind a recliner, happy. If you're a non-recliner behind a non-recliner, happy. Split on the exit row, or hopefully at least one row of people who don't care.

It's not a terrible idea.

Economics requires, though, that the flying experience be made awful enough on average that customers are just barely willing to fly, versus their best alternative.

Not everyone flies alone and not everyone who flies together has the same preferences for reclining their seat.

i think you would hardly find tecliners if it means someone in front of them will recline too, these are selfish people who want space for their legs plus take space behind them, once their own space would be at risk they would very quickly stop reclining

I don't understand how you can discern any difference between the upright position and the 1-2" recline position. I think you may be kidding yourself.

If you can't notice the difference between a reclined and non-reclined seat you should probably get that checked out.

I agree with the parent. I remember many years ago that the seats could recline a noticeable amount. Now it's like an inch.

I can certainly tell whether or not the seat is reclined, but there is no perceptible difference in comfort: both modes are equally uncomfortable. I would guess that the previous poster meant something very similar, rather than hypothesizing some bizarre proprioceptive malfunction which left them unable to sense their body's angle of alignment to the floor, as you seem to have done.

That's unfortunate for you and the other poster but given the popularity of reclining I'm going to have to think you're in the minority.

If you suffer from lumbar (or any other region) pain in your column, reclining or not is a huge difference. I never had problems about knees getting closer or not, etc., but having suffered from lumbar pain for a part of my life, I can assure you that reclining or not has a big impact.

No, it doesn't mean that pain -> need to recline. Sometimes it gets better keeping it straight, sometimes you get relief when you recline.

The advantage was to have the option to choose it at every travel, or during the travel.

As options get limited, so was my pleasure getting lower.

> I never had problems about knees getting closer or not

But other people do, that's the point.

I'm only 6'1 but with long legs, if someone reclines in front they're literally on top of my knees the entire flight. When turbulence occurs they bounce up and down on my knees.

I try to book exit rows and Economy+ when budget allows, but for all other times I take painkillers and just have to let my knees get damaged by the 4' woman in front of me who's comfort is more important than my pain.

So should the smallest/cheapest seat be designed for shaq to sit in it?

Why should smaller people be forced to pay for bigger seats that they do not need?

the seats are fine, reclining is not and should be removed completely

That's not her problem, it's yours. If you can't fit in the seat in the different possible configurations, you need to pay extra or not fly.

Have I been on different airlines than these people who fight?

In my experience airline seat backs pivot at a point somewhere around knee height, so reclining a seat doesn't affect legroom at all. When the person in front of me reclines it tilts my laptop monitor a little but that's it.

I guess so. Every flight I've been on has made it uncomfortable for me if the person in front is reclining. The angle makes my laptop have to open less than 90 degrees (15"). The incline also has to begin below the knee (ie. at the base of your seat) because the seat is horizontal and seats are at the same level.

My knees usually touch the seat in front so I have to spread my legs awkwardly when the recline happens.

It has to me--I have long femurs and the tight seats are already bad enough. When someone reclines, I am that much worse off. I usually sit in a "V" as much as possible or get an aisle seat so that one leg can stretch into the aisle sometimes.

Honestly, I'm pretty much done with flying until such time as airlines come to grips with their management problems.

For anyone who dislikes recliners - in what manner does it inconvenience you? For me, it's not useful space that is taken up, except perhaps transiently as I squeeze past my neighbours to get to the aisle. My knees are below the point that reclines. Are laptops the problem?

Agreed. Except for the VERY long-legged, a reclined seat-back in front doesn't remove leg space. It pivots at/above knee level and simply pivots marginally closer to me. I have never had a reclined seat obstruct my view of the entertainment screen or make me tray unusable.

On the other side, I don't recline the seat to create more space for myself. I recline it to alleviate discomfort from the absurdly upright default seat position.

What? The seat pivots below knee level by definition, unless you've found a plane where the base of the seat slopes down from the back to the front.

(Since the seat is level or slopes slightly upward from back to front then the pivot point is at the back of the base of the seat. Since the legs are sitting on - i.e. above - the seat, then the knees have to be above the pivot point and reclining does indeed remove leg space.)

Disclaimer: I'm over 6' with long femurs and have had exactly this situation happen to me on a flight. When the person in front of me reclines my legs do not fit in the remaining space, even if I'm sitting all the way back in my seat.

I understand the economic rationale airlines have for separate seat classes, but at the same time that rationale irritates me because I end up having to pay more for something that is entirely out of my control (genetics).

Same for me. On Southwest, my knees fit exactly (slightly touching) without the person infront of me reclining. Luckily I'm fairly wiry and usually angle my butt to the left of the chair, and knees on the right (or vice versa). Or I can put my feet and shins under the seat infront of me.

But a normal "feet on ground" sitting position doesn't work if someone infront of me reclines their seat.

I'm under 5'7", I'll trade you your genetic shortcomings with mine, especially with the ladies;)

Not by definition. Most people don't sit precisely with a 90 degree angle and instead extend their legs into the space under the seat in front of them.

If your bag is taking up all of that space, you are doing it wrong.

and the funny part is someone shorter but heavier than you pay same price as you though economically he cost airline in fuel more than you, so if we wanna be fair we should be charged per kilo of live with, same as with baggage, i am fine with smaller and lighter people paying less than me, i am not fine with someone voluntarily living unhealthy and reclining seat paying same as me

Anything on the tray table is the problem. Reclining reduces my use of my tray table. It also reduces the area I have to read my book, I can't hold it as far from my face as I like.

But IMO it should be enough that it intrudes into my space, which is already at an extreme premium. It doesn't have to be useful space, I'm already cramped and you're making my space smaller. Please don't.

The space the seat reclines into isn't your space.

I disagree. I could reach into that space when I sat down and now I can't.

Think of it this way: my house has 8 foot ceilings. I'm only 6 foot tall, so I could lower my ceilings by almost two feet and not hit my head. But it would certainly impact my comfort level inside my house.

You can reach into the space next to you before someone sits down too. Does that make it your space or their space that they haven't occupied yet?

Personally I just like the extra space. I think it's really for everyones convenience not to recline before most of the people are sleeping in the plane. What if some one has to get out of the window seat? What if food is served? What if person wants to use laptop or read? Reclined seats are always on the way.

I have had people recline right onto my knees then continue pushing back when the seat stops moving. Some planes are much worse than others wrt knee space though. I am also a few inches over six foot.

Reclined seats can also make laptop use difficult and some people don't check what is going on behind them before blasting their seat backwards which can be disastrous if you have a drink on your tray at that moment.

I love to recline my seat and stretch out a little but I rarely do so since it is so annoying to the next person. The only time I recline is on long-haul flights when the lights are out and I can see that the person behind me is clearly sleeping. Even in this situation, I recline just enough to give myself some lower-back relief.

I don't like people that recline (or planes for that matter), but I'm also pretty tall (6') and long legged. It's already painful to squeeze into the seat, and I either have to move my feet all the way under the seat in front of me (I kick the little footstand a few times), or I have my feet flat on the floor, and my knees get stuck behind someone reclining.

I support reclining, but almost had the screen of my Thinkpad mangled when someone reclined and the tray table hook caught the top of my screen and started forcing it downwards in a way it shouldn't go. I was fast enough to scoop the laptop out of the way, but it sure was scary.

It also made positioning the laptop a little trickier, but it was totally manageable and just a price you pay on an airplane.

Depending on the airplane/seat, it actually makes my legs have a tighter fit. I'm 6'2".

Whenever I fly for work I usually pay the extra money for a better seat personally.

I typically don't recline my seat on a plane, because in most cases it makes my ride less comfortable to be behind someone who reclines.

That's just the thing "pay the extra money"--okay, fine, but we are doing this all time just to get back to where we were a few years ago minus the "pay the extra money" part of the equation. It's not just airlines that are screwing us, but grocery chains come quickly to mind, and basically any place where the runaway inflation is being passed on to us all the while everyone thinks this is "normal" and "fine" and all the while I think I'm going crazy because I'm the only one who noticed that 14.2oz. is the new 16oz. and ice cream that used to be sold by the half gallon is now 1.5qt. and NOBODY raises a stink about this?

It is NOT OKAY.

It is the kind of thing previous generations would start fights over when a merchant was so blatantly screwing them over.

I don't really have a choice if I want to use air travel.

Or my other choice is be (more) uncomfortable.

Cut the entitlement lines. "previous generations" mostly couldn't afford to fly at all because it was so expensive relative to normal incomes. Today people can afford to fly on very low incomes in these economy seats you're getting flustered about.

Here's a hint, pay for first class. That's the equivalent level of service and price range that previous generations received (inflation adjusted).

Laptops are my concern.

In fact, with my MBP sitting on the tray when someone declines, the top gets caught where the tray fits into. I have seen my screen bend slightly when someone reclines quickly. I expect to get a laptop destroyed that way at some point.

Even when I do recline (not often), I do it slowly so if the person behind me is using their laptop, they're not surprised.

For me, it's very uncomfortable. There's a reason why office chairs are not all fixed in a reclined position.

> in what manner does it inconvenience you?

The seat will literally sit on top of my knees the entire flight, full weight. It is more than an "inconvenience" it is damn painful.

Can't use laptops, can't eat on the tray because there isn't enough space left, and can't watch the monitor on the back of the seat because it's facing down.

So it's pretty inconvenient.

Pro tip almost all of those screens allow you to pull the bottom out to make it flat again. I don't think I've ever been on a flight this wasn't true on actually.

Don't most of these monitors swivel so that the monitor point is moot?

Honestly, if you fly coach, don't plan on using a laptop. There really isn't enough room for your elbows and there probably isn't enough room for the laptop itself unless you have a mini version of some kind. I'm not saying it's the way things should be but it's the realistic expectation in standard coach.

I've done all three of those things on a reclined seat. Why weren't you able to?

Different seats? I travel frequently and there are differences across airlines and also laptop sizes.

TLDR ask person in front of you not recline and compensate them with drink or other small gift and most likely they will accept it even without the gift

What is this blasphemy of treating humans like humans. It is crazy how many overly dramatic articles and situations could probably be resolved by simply civil dialog and discussion.

Because about half the time the response is extremely uncivil, so people are afraid to try the civil approach. So people do just as you say: treat humans like humans. Since humans are largely evil, that results in the behavior we see.

It's not that humans are largely evil but about asking people to be less comfortable based on your own preference. Don't recline. Move to a non-preferred seat so I can sit next to my girlfriend. Etc. In some cases this may be reasonable but they're the sort of negotiation I prefer not to get into on a Plane where you're implicitly the bad guy if you say no.

it's not about my preference if you hit me with your reclined seat

it's like saying I am making smoker less comfortable based on my own preference that I wanna breathe clean air, he is disrupting clean enviroment, you are disrupting good relations by reclining, I have no problem to not recline for person behind me, because once you do it everyone behind you have to do it to gain a little space the first person who started these selfishly took

It's not like that at all in this case the person in front of you has paid for that space you are occupying. It was never your space to begin with.

no, you buy seat with space for your legs, if someone is taking my space for legs he is taking something I paid for

they paid for space in front of their seat up to back of the seat in front of them

They paid for the space taken up when the seat reclined if your legs don't fit in that space they you need to buy another seat or pressure airlines to start better serving people of your size. It's not the person in front of you who is at fault it is everyone that has ever done a ticket search and sorted from lowest price to highest.

i am no special person, i am pretty skinny so they have low fuel expenses on me compared to some short fat people and i have no problem to travel with reasonable polite people who won't recline seat for someone much taller seeing behind them

but ok, let's stop being polite and charge people per kg of weight if we do this already with baggage, at least fat people will have motivation to stop eating, not sure what unhealthy i did that i grew tall and should handle ignorant people reclining seats

There is nothing impolite about using a space you paid for. I don't see how charging by weight would improve your situation any. You're still trying to fly in a seat that doesn't fit your body.

well hurting someone (by pushing your seat on their legs) unless it is necessary (which it is not in case of reclining, you can just sit as fine without reclining) is impolite by standards of most civilized countries

but maybe in your country causing unnecessary discomfort to other person is being polite...

Imposing on other people's space to save money is impolite to me.

You are confused about what you paid for. You can ask the flight attendant and the person who reclines is in the right.

well I can just leave there my legs and they won't recline the seat, I don't think there is some regulation about people over certain height mandatory booking higher class, so one would assume expecting someone not hurting me would be easier to communicate for airline than trying to defend such selfish person

but who knows, I don't fly with US airlines which are famous for quality of their service and maybe in US it is normal to side with person who wanna hurt others

Is it evil or selfish? I think selfishness can be perceived as evil but I don't think people are intentionally evil to others. I think humans are inherently selfish which makes other's feel as though one's actions are evil.

"Treat humans like humans" also is defined based on where and how you were raised.

I have only had an issue with a reclining seat once before. It was a transatlantic flight on a horribly old 767 and the gentlemen in front of me reclined (at speed) and then turned around and ordered me to get my knees out of his back as though I could miraculously make myself a few inches shorter. My row mates and I had a good laugh about it and I resolved to only fly premium economy for flights of any meaningful length in the future.

I think this problem has been at least partially solved with the slide forward to recline seats; e.g.:

"One product from Zodiac is the 5751 slimline economy class seat. This particular model of seat uses a unique recline mechanism where the seat bucket moves forward while reclining."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Seats_U.S.

here is an example of the seat: http://downloads.cathaypacific.com/cx/new_seat/seatguide/Oly...

p.s. on international 8+ hours flights resting/sleeping without reclining is challenging ...

The whole situation is ridiculous - the airlines clearly know if they sold you the right to recline or not, if they only stopped being so damn ambiguous about the rules there would be no fights.

What's ambiguous? Airlines let you recline except during takeoff and landing. However, various people argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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