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Thanks for mentioning the stigma around motorcycles and scooters in the U.S. They are seen as grown up toys, yet all over the world motorcycles serve as a primary means of transportation for millions of people. Careless drivers obviously aren't targeting motorcycles, but I think there's a collective lack of mindfulness to their presence on the road.

Anecdotally, I became a better car driver after just a few weeks of simply learning to ride a motorcycle on public roads.

What did you learn from riding a motorcycle?

I'm not OP but I do ride and experienced the same.

If you're taking it seriously and respect the danger, you learn how to drive as if you are invisible. You learn to pay attention to and anticipate the movements of other drivers, to look at their wheels and not their eyes. Eyes lie, wheels do not.

You learn just how careless a shocking majority of people are behind the wheel of a two ton vehicle. You peek into every window for the glimpse of a hand reaching for a turn signal stalk, and all too often see a horrifying lack of attention paid to the road and a surplus of attention paid to a phone, eating, putting makeup on, putting contact lenses in, and smoking pot.

You learn to never hang out in a bind spot. Never!

You avoid situations where a car turning left in front of you (USA) has poor visibility. Usually due to a left turn lane and tight conditions. This exact scenario is responsible for a large percentage of moto accidents and anecdotally I have had two close calls myself, and I'm a highly cautious rider.

You avoid positions on the road which are statistically dangerous for riders.

Obviously these are things you can learn in a car, but it's just different. The stakes are higher for small accidents and you really are invisible to many people, even with hi-vis gear, motorcycles are just smaller at the end of the day and Americans are not used to them nor trained to keep them in mind on the road.

Thanks for the reply. I agree not hanging out in someone's blind spot and anticipating other drivers' actions are extremely important things to keep in mind while driving.

Not the parent, but a fellow motorcyclist. The biggest thing for me was learning to better anticipate the actions of other motorists. A couple of other things you quickly learn are to always leave yourself an out and always be watching/scanning your surroundings.

Car drivers should be doing the same, but it's entirely too easy to get complacent.

Also a motorcyclist.

- We're trained to look and anticipate much further down the road than car drivers are.

- Unlike car drivers, we don't get to space out and rely on our mental autopilots to wake us up when something goes off-nominal. It's a much more active and deliberate process.

- We develop a "sixth sense" for when cars are going to change lanes without signaling (there are lots of cues: driver head movement, matching speed to find an open space, wheels turning, etc) and tend to catch these events far, far ahead of our current positions.

- Rounding curves is a highly deliberate process for motorcyclists, one of the biggest components being "look all the way through the turn." Since learning to ride, I no longer get surprised by developments around a corner, because I've been looking at and planning around them since before I entered the corner. I also get more frustrated by my A-pillar thwarting this attempt, lean so I can see around it, and would be less likely to buy a car with a dangerously enormous A-pillar like a Prius.

- Less safety-related, but I also now drive the way you're supposed to ride: slow down approaching the corner to create plenty of distance from the car ahead of you, look all the way through and plan your path through it, then accelerate through that path. Decelerating through a curve/turn is horrible for motorcycle stability and I get pissed off when people brake through curves in front of me, even in a car.

I haven't thought about how motorcycles would be more unstable going through a turn. Thanks!

I learned that car drivers cannot see motorbikes, so when I'm driving a car, I specifically look for them; every time I check the mirrors, or am waiting to pull out or across, I'm specifically looking for a motorbike, and when I shift lane I turn my head to see what model of motorbike is sitting in my blind spot.

There are not many motorcycle drivers near where I live and I noticed that they are more difficult to spot than other vehicles when you're changing lanes. I'll make sure to keep that in mind.

Scooters have a worse reputation: In Indiana, folks with scooters were either kids (as a 15-year-old can ride one), too poor for a car, or someone with a DUI conviction and that is their only transportation.

Nasty car-to-car crashes happen all the time, and it isn't because the drivers involved don't consider cars a valid means of transport. The difference is that you can walk away from most car-to-car crashes because you're ensconced in 3000 pounds of steel.

Perhaps it will make more sense when self-driving cars, or even just lane keeping and auto-braking cruise control become mainstream.

I agree that car accidents still happen. But honestly most my near misses with cars were outright insane.

One in particular gives me chills. I was driving along an empty road and a car wanted to make a right-hand turn onto the road. The car driver came to a stop at the side road, we were close and it was clear enough that I made eye contact with the middle-aged woman driver. I swear she looked me right in the eyes, then she proceeded to drive right out in front of me. I swerved, slammed on the brakes and slid up next to her car (luckily there was room on a single lane road). She just waved at me apologetically. I wore a bright red and white (with reflective strips) jacket, bright green and white pants, black and white reflective helmet and my motorcycle was bright green, it was the middle of the day (but not glary) and I had my headlights on regardless.

I'm absolutely convinced she saw me, we looked right at each other, she was just in a bit of a daze and a motorbike didn't register as a car, so she just pulled out. Now, it's true she could have done the same with a car. Obviously, I can't know for sure, but I absolutely believe if bikes were more common that situation just wouldn't have happened - at least, not like it did.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm actually in Australia. So for you US folk it was a left-hand turn she was making ;)

I think many people are incredibly bad at judging the speed of unfamiliar moving objects. They get lots of training judging car (large object) speed, but their brains just cant properly guesstimate bike speed or something (little practice) -- like a non-baseball-player person trying to hit a fastball or something.

A bit like this? https://imgur.com/r/wtf/w7TLaja

Ah, no. Not like that at all.

That cyclist is in a right turning lane and rode right over a painted traffic island. Not at all suggesting that gives the car the right to drive into them. However, being stupid is something motorcyclists (and I'd assume cyclists) generally try to avoid!

The cyclist should have been on the right side of the left lane rather than the left side of the right lane, that's true. But watching this, I'm not left with the impression that that would have made the slightest difference in this accident. The cyclist was clearly moving too fast to make the right turn; if the motorist had registered him at all, they would surely have waited.

The strangest thing about this video is that there's a considerable gap in traffic before the cyclist arrives at the intersection; the motorist had plenty of time to turn in front of him. I think the motorist had to have been drunk or texting or something; it almost looks like they intentionally waited to hit him.

I try to ride my e-bike very defensively -- and indeed I've never been hit by a car, though I've had a couple of close calls -- but I'm not at all sure I would have avoided this one.

as a motorcyclist, i see that situation as a complete death trap and would absolutely slow down approaching it. you have someone turning left and someone looking to turn right to eventually merge, two of the most dangerous situations on the road. and here you have this bicyclist just blasting through do not cross lines, not letting anyone be aware of what he's about to do, and seemingly without self-awareness. i personally see bicyclists as the most unpredictable things on the road. i feel for them, but i personally don't think they take the same precautions as motorcyclists. of course i'm generalizing, but i interact with them on a daily basis. they just scare me in whatever way i'm getting around: car driver, motorcyclist, pedestrian.

The car on the right is actually waiting to turn left onto the main road.

I agree the cyclist should have been in the left lane, though as a cyclist I also understand why he wasn't, but seems to me it should never surprise anyone when another vehicle continues in a straight line at a constant speed, notwithstanding the road markings. He was clearly not going to make the right turn; he was going much too fast, and made no movement in that direction. I think if the motorist had seen him at all they would waited for him to go by.

I agree, the stigma is a bummer (though from my point of view not unwarranted; my dad has never walked the same after his accident).

I'm fairly excited about the Arcimoto SRK[1], which is supposed to be available in small quantities this year. It's supposed to be snappy and stable, goes up to highway speeds, and should be a fair bit safer than a motorcycle with the frame and roll cage. At $12k base, you're definitely paying a premium for the electric aspect, but I think it's reasonable. It's at least close to electric motorcycles (like Zeros[2]). How the weirdness of a three-wheeled vehicle (I see them around, but not often) will stack up against safety stigma remains to be seen.

[1] https://www.arcimoto.com/ [2] http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

I agree with motorbikes and scooters being more efficient land-use wise and fuel -wise --but in certain countries where they are abundant, it was not uncommon for me to witness riders flouting motor vehicle code (ignoring traffic lights, going against traffic, making unpredictable manoeuvers, casual helmet use, overloading, etc.), and I'm not talking about rural backwaters, I mean main cities with dedicated lanes for motorbikes. In my commuting, it was about once a week I witnessed something requiring an ambulance.