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This is me, too. My wife complains that it's like I'm trying to have two or three lives instead of just the one. But I know I need the sleep I'm not getting, but I have a really hard time, once the kids are finally asleep, just going to bed myself. When everyone but me is asleep it's so peaceful and quiet, and I can read, slay work dragons, learn stuff, or just veg. Unfortunately this usually results in maybe six low quality hours of sleep. And I pay for it in distractibility, moodiness, not as smart as I am when well rested, etc. But overcoming the size of deficit I've got isn't pleasant either. I actually feel worse much of the time. More tired, speak less clearly, slow thought... It sucks. I probably just need to stick with it until my brain and body adjust and recover, but just haven't gotten to that point yet. My growing concern is that not enough sleep and poor quality of sleep can literally, indirectly, kill you (via things related or compounded by lack of sleep). Yikes! I'd like to grow old with my wife, and see our kids grow up. So... Gotta beat this problem somehow!

> When everyone but me is asleep it's so peaceful and quiet, and I can read, slay work dragons, learn stuff, or just veg. Unfortunately this usually results in maybe six low quality hours of sleep. And I pay for it in distractibility, moodiness, not as smart as I am when well rested, etc. ...I actually feel worse much of the time. More tired, speak less clearly, slow thought... It sucks.

Are you me?

No, he is me. :)

I feel this way about getting up really early. It's a great feeling. And by around 9 I've made a LOT of progress. That feels even better...

I'd love to get a 9-5 sleep pattern. Sleep at 9pm, wake at 5am.

Two questions.

Why?

And why don't you?

Wow, you just described my problem 100% accurately.

So, what do we do?!

Live with the choices you've made and get enough sleep. You can't do everything the world has to offer.

What about setting a bedtime for yourself? Treat it like other events, meetings, or work. Whether 10, or 11 or whatever time will give you the chance to sleep enough given whatever time you need to get up.

A lot of life org problems are good candidates for solving through scheduling ...

I used to be like this. And the problem was, because there was no pattern to my sleep, I found out extremely difficult to sleep, even when I wanted to.

A few things helped me. First, I started logging my sleep. It helped me analyze how much sleep I was really getting. Second, this sounds simplistic, but I first fixed the waking time. Irrespective of the time I sleep, I started waking up at the exact same time everyday. And finally, I stopping using all gadgets at least for 2 hours before my sleep time.

I see a marked improvement in the quality of my sleep these days. Hope you beat your problem too.

For the fixed wakeup time:

1. What do you do if in a situation where you'll get a low amount of sleep. Nap mid day? 2. What about social stuff? I'd love to get up at 8 am most days, but then any social event in the evening throws that off.

Naps might fix the latter, but I have trouble napping due to onset insomnia. Unless I'm extremelt fatigued.

Try having a kid ;)

Ours gets me up between 6 and 7am every day. If I'm up late the night before I just end up going to be super early the next day and things even out.

Skip the naps; take the tiredness as punishment, go to bed at a fixed time. The trick is consistency, and a nap will interrupt said consistency. Usually you can function fine with a few hours less sleep, as long as it's not a regular event.

Punishment for having a good time Friday night until 6am, then waking up at 7am your usual time? Seems unreasonable

You want to stick to a sleep schedule but also break it and still have it work the same? Seems unreasonable.

Was more referring to how he says don't nap. Why can't I wake up at 7 on Saturday and then have an afternoon nap

I don't need "punishment" for something I want to do (stay out on Friday)

those times its ok to sleep until 10 am. 4 hours of sleep will get you through the day. its important to not sleep too much or you will not be tired enough to fall asleep at night.

i also want to add thats its better to get 6 hours of deep sleep then trying to sleep and basically awake whole night.

and best tip to get tired is to wake up early and do some exercise during the day.

also eat at the same times every day.

routines x3

Pick a time and stick to it. Doesn't matter how little sleep you get.

It also helps to have a meal as soon as you get up. And meal is anything with calories in it. I.e. a cabbage leaf is fine.

This helps reset your circadian rhythm (great for jetlag too).

I'm assuming this is just temporary and eventually it's just smooth sailing and you get sleepy?

What do you do with social events etc though. Nap? Just be tired? If they're 1-2x per week I guess I'd need a later fixed time.

> I'm assuming this is just temporary and eventually it's just smooth sailing and you get sleepy?

No, you pick something you want permanent and just do it.

Eating early after waking is helpful. I drink tea with L-Theanine before bed and reduce blue light. I take melatonin when I really need it, which is rare.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22214254

I'm not naturally an early riser.

> What do you do with social events etc though. Nap?

I eat low carb, I drink a lot of water and I exercise. Makes it a lot harder to be too tired to function. Only 4 hours of sleep? That's tough, rework your day to only do non creative things that don't require too much thinking. Admin, emails etc.

I also have a 10 month old which helps me avoid social situations that are not valuable.

I guess I should have added the caveat that I want to be getting eight hours fairly consistently. How often would you say you have less.

When doing heavy weight training, it's more or less a necessity.

(No kid at this point, I'm sure that will change things once I do have once)

> I guess I should have added the caveat that I want to be getting eight hours fairly consistently. How often would you say you have less.

Right now, I'm sleep training a baby, so less. My goal is 7 hours and I really enjoy 8. And I can get this consistently.

> When doing heavy weight training, it's more or less a necessity.

I've been a gym rat for many years and I can attest to this. Not enough sleep and your tanks are empty, no power.

> (No kid at this point, I'm sure that will change things once I do have once)

Kids make you focus. You cut out things you wasted time on and you're back to where you were. Less time wasty, more family and relationship. Works out well.

Thanks! I appreciate the detailed replies. Going to test this.

> I'm assuming this is just temporary and eventually it's just smooth sailing and you get sleepy?

After reading this again. Yes, the goal is a habit that puts you into a rhythm. The place you want to be is to not need an alarm to wake up and to wake up with light (natural or not). Now I like sleeping too much for this to work. I'll happily stay in bed for 10 hours. More than that and my body starts hurting...

( Artificial: http://www.usa.philips.com/c-m-li/light-therapy/wake-up-ligh... )

I get to bed at a fixed time. If I haven't had enough sleep then I take a 15 minute coffee nap in the afternoon. Try exercise daily. Disclaimer: I'm a reformed night owl.

The question I used to ask myself, that helped me make a conscious decision: Are two extra hours a day worth operating poorly for the other 16? Even if you're at 90% of your normal operating capacity (understanding that the mind is not quite that easy to quantify), that means that you lose over three hours of productivity just to gain those extra two.

Thinking of it along those lines - valuing quality over quantity - helped encourage me to create a fixed sleeping schedule.

One other thing that helps - do things in stretches. 4 hours of slaying dragons once a week is a lot more fun than half an hour 7 times a week.

Is ~6 hours low ? After I started working out before work I started getting up ~6-6:30 but I can't go to sleep much earlier than 12 (I just end up rolling around in bed) - but I've been doing this for so long now I can't really tell the difference. I sleep over on the weekends but I don't notice extra productivity or being rested.

I'll try to go to sleep at 22:30 this week to see if I feel different.

As the article mentioned, "low" is relative as different people require different amounts of sleep. 6 hours might be totally fine for you while someone else would be a complete zombie.

Personal needs vary, but also know that you can stabilize on chronic low sleep and not even know it. I did a few years getting ~6 hours most days, and felt ok. I eventually ended up getting 8-9 for quite a while (months), recovered, and now quite literally feel better than I knew I could.

A simple, funny example: I always thought I was prone to getting songs stuck in my head. It turns out I'm not unless I'm sleep deprived, but that was such a constant state that I never knew there was an alternative.

Yea, I've been feeling 'off' for a while now but so many moving things and any one could be it - will try sleeping more for a week to see if it makes a difference.

> But overcoming the size of deficit I've got isn't pleasant either. I actually feel worse much of the time.

I'm glad I'm not alone in this. On a stable, moderate sleep deficit (often 6 hours, like you), I feel ok. I'm used to it, I'm not exhausted, it's alright. I pay in attentiveness and memory, but it's bearable.

As I start to dig out, I feel like shit. I don't know if it's the changing schedule or some 'expectation' from my body of actually good sleep, but I feel groggy, distractable, and generally useless. It takes many days of consistent recovery (often ~9 hours) to shake that off, and only a few days of error to fall back into the routine.

I used to think the evenings when the whole family is asleep was the best time to get in the zone as well. But then I would be up until 3am and have a hard time sleeping. Grogginess would linger around the next day, and my wife and kids would get the short, irritable side of me. I felt I was constantly fighting to be productive.

Now, I have an exercise routine in the mornings. I wake up with my 2 daughters (both under 3) at ~7am and immediately setup for a 30min workout video. The kids love routine, so they adapted very easily. I make breakfast after cooling down, my wife is able to have a peaceful shower, then around 9am she takes over. I think that moment to herself in the morning helps her to reset for another crazy day.

Now I hit the shower and my mind now starts to lock in. I start creating a mental agenda of what I need to get done. Feeling rejuvenated, I hit the ground running. Creativity and focus now flow naturally throughout the day. I usually feel super productive and accomplished by dinner time. It is easy to let go and be ready to join the family. Sometimes I continue working through dinner, but no screens after 10pm has given me massive productivity gains.

Save the game! I had the same issue because I was terrified of forgetting things...so I've started taking notes and reminders for the following day(s) in order to resume the mental processes. Even a to-do list using todoist would free you some CPU cycles and will make you sleep better.

But the game plays further in my head even after I shutdown the computer or write down the last note. I often find myself above a piece of paper that I wanted to scribble on, but my mind jumped and run around much faster than I could even start to write anything.

I just count my breaths to 10 to stop the endless thoughts from coming up. 1 while breathing-in, 1 while breathing out, 2 - in, 2 - out, 3, 3, 4, 4, and so on until I reach 10, then I start over from 1 again. If you do this for long enough, at some point your brain will learn to do this automatically. If that's the case. Increase the difficulty. Count to to 10 then back to 1 then back to 10, etc... Or count in multiple languages. This helps me to put myself to sleep (to stop endless train of thoughts) all the time. Of course, sometimes, you need to think things through. You need to learn to recognise when this need is present and give yourself into the reflection. What's so good about this technique, is that even when I reflect on stuff, I know that whenever I notice that the reflection is no longer meaningful, I can just switch the thinking off anytime by using the technique... Hope this helps.

Take up less things at once, or, try and focus on one thing, preferably finishing it at the end of the work day. Divide your tasks up into smaller, achievable subtasks, check it off, save the rest. It's okay to not do everything, you can't.

Ritual helps me shut down. Power off the computer, make tea, curl up on the couch and read, brush teeth, etc. Going from 60 to 0 instantly is never realistic.

Tea has caffeine, IIANM regular caffeine intake has long term effects on sleep.

Herbal teas often consumed at night don't normally contain caffeine.

I'm right there with you on not feeling like I'm done with the day. After my son goes to sleep I a precious few hours to myself, of which chores takes a fair chunk - so I might have only one hour of "me time" if I go to bed when I should. So often, that 1 hour is pushed out a wee bit. Brain works much better on at least 7 hours though, but that time at the end of the night is really my sweet spot and I savour it like nothing else.

At any rate, I find reading using the Kindle app on my OLED device (S8+ or S2 tab) with bluelight filter enabled (native filter on S8, app on S2 tab) with lowest brightness (white text/black background) to be great.

I'll start off with a bit of sci-fi, and if it gets too exciting I'll then switch to something less exciting - e.g. continue my work on the blue book (DDD) or something like that. ;)

Lifting weights in the gym also helps (e.g. 5x5 stronglifts), and not just for sleep either.

> I feel like I might need to seek some professional help on this, but I'll still take it as far as possible before that.

Please don't wait. It took me years to get help, and sleep is very easy to fix with such a tiny amount of medical care. The doctor literally gave me a look like "You've tried to live with this for a decade instead of spending $40 and a couple hours to fix it at any point during that time?", gave me a prescription for a simple sleep aid, and told me to call him if that didn't work within a week or two.

It could be that in your case, as in mine also, sleep schedule problems are masking something more important, like apnea, mood disorders, ADHD, or other issues. There's really no reason to suffer needlessly out of some misplaced sense of heroism.

Except that's not solving the problem, that's temporarily addressing the symptom. Hypnotics should not be taken lightly or for extended periods of time. Drugs may help at first but they're not the solution for sleep issues. You need to address the underlying problem.

Seeking medical attention is the first step to addressing the underlying problem though. You need to get the rest you need in order to work on deeper issues.

I'm in the same boat here actually. If I actually feel like going to sleep at the correct time I feel like I'm just not getting any value out of my life unless there's something that interests me at all times.

I just keep pounding caffeine and it really doesn't bug me. I'm sure my performance in just about everything has dropped significantly, but eh, I'm in a fairly secure situation now, so I feel like value out of my life vs performance in tasks I don't really like that much... I'll take the value usually.

I feel the same, and I always seem to be able to drop that rushed feeling after about 3-4 days of holiday. Just being in nature first make me feel I should be doing something useful but after a couple of days the more relaxed mindset kicks in. I become a nicer person to be around, I'm better at handling my kids (I'm less emotional, more calm) and I start to live more slowly. The relationship with my wife also flourishes under such circumstances. That feeling we create, of urgency, of pressure to perform, of setting the bar so high we almost always fail our own big plans, is really damaging I think. It's very healthy to feel content with oneself, to be proud and calm, to feel like you are doing well.

For me it is sometimes "excited to do stuff" but it also is often "life got in the way and I never got a chance to unwind."

I really need to unwind before bed, and if I don't get that time to turn off my brain, I'll be up all night. So I stay up late until I feel ready for bed, but I'm screwed either way at that point.

Yeah seems like I'm still on the good boat where I'm not actually forced to be concentrated on something all the time, I just do it because I'm like that, and have free time to focus and obsess over the stuff that I like.

Getting life in your way often seems to be way worse.

I have the same issue. My workaround is to lie in bed, count 1, 2, 3, 4 over and over again (in my mind) and try to focus on these numbers. My mind wanders away all the time but then I just try to get back to counting.

Might sound stupid but I guess after a while of thought-speeding my brain gets bored and calm down. Works for me at least.

Also no coffee after 4PM.

audiobook player w/ sleep timer

That's actually what we do in some schools of zen when we do zazen.

We begin to steady and stabilize the mind by counting the breath. We practice by counting each inhalation and each exhalation, beginning with one and counting up to ten. Inhale — at the end of the inhalation, count one. Exhale — at the end of the exhalation, count two. When you get to ten, come back to one and start all over. The only agreement that you make with yourself in this process is that if your mind begins to wander — if you become aware that what you’re doing is chasing thoughts – you will look at the thought, acknowledge it, and then deliberately and consciously let it go and begin the count again at one.

It eventually stills the mind and will help you, or at least me (the few times I have trouble falling asleep), to wander into zzzzz land.

Yes - I've come across the same breathing suggestions via Headspace.

> It eventually stills the mind and will help you

I does still the mind, but I have a problem that it makes me even more awake. A couple of times I tried that I ended up going back to my laptop and working through the night because I felt like I gained so much energy.

That is a clear sign that you're overworking your brain.

> I does still the mind, but I have a problem that it makes me even more awake.

Then skip the counting and just focus on your breathing (shikantaza). If that also is too much to focus on, do it for 20 minutes or so and then just try to sleep the regular way. Hopefully your brain wont be monkey minding as much as it did before the excercise.

I want to stress that this is not zazen — when doing zazen you should not fall asleep — but a method that I think can be useful also when we try to fall asleep.

> It's the worst when I'm working on my computer, due to the blue light (I've started wearing yellow sunglasses to minimize the effect)

If you are on Linux you should have a look at Redshift[0]. It allows you to adjust color temperature and brightness via command line. During daytime I put more blue and brightness into the screen, depending on the weather outside (5000K-6500K, 70%-100% brightness). I do this once when I start working. When it gets dark outside I turn the values down to something like 3000K-4000K and 50%-70% brightness, depending on the amount of light inside the room. This relaxes your eyes and puts you in a better (less tensive) mood, especially at night. Redshift really became essential to me.

[0]:http://jonls.dk/redshift/

Also, if iOS, Night Shift: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207570

Almost everything else, Flux: https://justgetflux.com/

Flux looks interesting, but it doesn't seem to support brightness adjustment. I think it's important to sync the brightness of your monitor with the brightness of its surrounding.

The Macbook and (I'm pretty sure) most modern laptops will also adjust backlight according to environment though.

But if you are using a workstation/external monitors you still gonna need it.

If you are on mac, you should check 'f.lux'. It will adjust the colors of the screen automatically to minify the effects of blue light.

There's f.lux for Linux as well, but you'll probably want to add a GUI [1]. f.lux runs on most desktops and phones.

Redshift seems to be the top choice for Linux users though, because f.lux lacks some basic features (like being able to turn it on during daylight hours). The trade-off is that f.lux is easier to install and has a smaller footprint.

Also worth noting is that Redshift is FOSS, and f.lux is not (though there are forks on githib, so I must be missing something).

[1] https://github.com/xflux-gui/xflux-gui

From macOS Sierra 10.12.4 onward, it's built in. Check Displays in System Preferences. Just tested now and it works with both internal display and external 4K screen.

I find getting rest, along with better diet and exercise, makes it easier to learn and do additional stuff outside of work. Flux is great for the blue light issue and cheaper than sunglasses. I've found music that makes thinking and relaxing at the same time before bed much easier.

My biggest struggle with sleep is existential anxiety. I'm not ready to "close" down the day and fast forward to the next day, so I "borrow" a lot of hours off my lifespan at a high interest rate just for the sake of making the "now" last a little bit longer. I'm not afraid to die. I just hate the mandatory fast forwarding of time.

You can use F.lux program to automatically remove blue light from the screen in the evening / at night.

One of the things I believe people like you have great success with, is routine and wind down. Set a bed time, and 1 hour before that you stop everything that'll keep you awake. Put on some quite music, e.g. easy listen or classic, and do something benign. Some people draw, some knit trivial stuff like blanket patches, others meditate. The important thing is that it is something your mind will not continue to work on after you put it down. This really helps myself, and my children wind down and get ready to sleep, and my day improved 10 fold when I got this procedure down.

Well, I would die of boredom not doing anything interesting for a whole hour.

That is kinda the point.

I had huge issues falling asleep. I was unable to fall asleep before 1am and had to get up at 6am. So Monday - Friday was a downward spiral of sleep debt and all of stresses that come with that.

I eliminated blue light (mostly) after 8:00 and it help slightly but within the margin of error.

I then added 15 minutes of mindfulness meditation everyday at lunch. Nothing wooy just mindfulness.

Within 2 weeks i was naturally getting tired around 10:00 and able to fall asleep in less than five minutes.

Quit meditating (because its a pia to find the time, it shouldnt' be but it is) and sleep problems returned.

I didn't even attribute my sleep improvement to the daily practice until i noticed my sleep was all messed up again.

It works and its just 15 minutes. People's millage may very but it was life changing for me.

Good work, and pretty nice that something as seemingly simple as 15 minutes of mindfulness yielded great results.

Are you fast paced in general? It is my experience that mindfulness enables the brain to put things away easier throughout the day, but it is really difficult the first week or so, because you actively have to let thoughts fly away.

I am. Before meditation i was never present my head was in a million different places. I could be having dinner with my family but really i was solving a coding problem, thinking about an interaction i had at work, recalling <horrible thing i did when i was 6). It was hard the first week i used the headspace app and started at 10 minutes a day, got up to 30 minutes using the app but could never keep up with a daily habit. 15 minutes seemed to be the magic number for me. It was long enough to help and short enough that i was able to incorporate it daily.

I know what you mean - Luckily I usually feel this kind of energy and urge to do stuff in the morning while preferring to wind down in the evening (which, admittedly, may still involve screens).

Maybe you could try to shift your tasks to fit a similar schedule. Use the evenings for thinking, reflecting, planning and theoretic concepts, preferably with some music, while executing those thoughts and ideas in the morning.

After I noted that I start making errors when I work late at night, I have learned to stop working at a reasonable time. For the times that I do work late, a red-light filter and adjusting the brightness of my screen to the minimum do wonders.

> It's the worst when I'm working on my computer, due to the blue light (I've started wearing yellow sunglasses to minimize the effect)

F.lux?

I've taken to excessive exercise to combat this. Really knocks me out at the end of the day and I wake up refreshed the next day.