Ask HN: Why shouldn't I leave Google? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Why shouldn't I leave Google?

90 pointsafraid123 comments

- I'm 26 - 2 years experience as a SWE at Google (my 1st ever job) - Enough cash to live the next ~2 years even with no salary - Unfulfilled at Google - Dreaming of starting my own company

Keeping all these in mind, why am I so afraid of leaving Google?

My mentor suggested to stay at Google until I find an interesting startup idea to work on. I want to spend 6 months in SE Asia and travel the world before starting my company.

Is fear really whats holding me back? Is Google too good of a workplace to leave?

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From someone who's been there done that: former Googler, now running engineering at a startup. It doesn't get any easier to come up with a startup idea once you leave mothership. I know it seems counterintuitive, since once you leave you have nothing else to do but come up with ideas, but you could find that after 6-9 months you still don't have anything you really believe in. That's what happened to me circa 2008. In the end I just joined Google back then. So your mentor seems to be right, even though what he's suggesting is not 100% ethical: if you read your contract you'll see that all of your software related ideas are property of Google. But they can't read your mind (yet) so there's no way for them to enforce this, unless you tell them about it or do something stupid, like using company laptop (or Borg, or Google3 code) to work on it.

> So your mentor seems to be right, even though what he's suggesting is not 100% ethical: if you read your contract you'll see that all of your software related ideas are property of Google.

It is most definitely not unethical to not comply with a bullshit authoritarian contract like that.

Wouldn't that ethically be wage theft? The employer is claiming ownership of your ideas when your off the clock, thus they should be paying you overtime if they want ownership of those ideas.

Nevermind the salary/overtime exempt scam that has been popular as of late, which is also wage theft.

I agree with you in principle, but I've seen shit you wouldn't believe when there's a few million dollars at stake: otherwise fine, ethical, upstanding human beings can turn into the worst weasels you can imagine if you don't hold the sword of legal retribution over their heads to assure their good faith. You won't quite understand that until you actually work on something you have a vested interest in succeeding, as in, a substantial financial stake, not some bullshit koolaid they feed you as you're slaving away on an irrelevant product #24554 at a Megacorp Inc.

Are they being properly compensated for their time? By that, I mean is the employee being directly compensated for all of the non-work hours the company is claiming ownership of ideas over?

Otherwise, if its a classic "Here is a salary and package, we own all your relevant ideas from here on" deal, I'd say that is highly unethical behavior on the company's part, and is a case of wage theft.

Should the employee be barred from moonlighting too? Not unless the company is willing to pay for said time.

If you don't like compensation the door is open, you can leave. Look, I agree with you in principle, but I'm now a large shareholder in a business, so I see the other side of the argument too. The goal isn't really to stop anyone from pursuing something unrelated, an idea that's mostly theirs. The goal is to avoid Levandovsky-style backstabbing. Especially for small companies, this can be fatal.

So you agree with me in principle, but when it comes to action you feel we should fuck over the worker in the name of profit?

To quote Martin Luther King Jr.:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;"

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

It's the same bootlicking mentality behind both of these problems.

Pretty much, I'd much rather talk with a MAGA than a liberal, despite the similarity in views I may share with said liberal.

The former I can often have a sensical conversation with and perhaps change their mind on some issues, the latter feeling an outright opposition to taking action or altering their views.

It's fuck or get fucked. I'd rather not get fucked, same as you. It's just that now I'm on the other end.

Yeah but in this fucked up battle, you are the bad guy and the employee is not.

The problem is the employee can't really leave, because everyone else users a similar contact. But what exactly is the other side of the argument? The one that says "we don't really want to stop you from pursuing something unrelated, but we are going to make you sign it over to us anyways "

This links sums up nicely why that's the only practical way for software companies: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...

> Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty.

> Ooops. That’s not what you meant. You wanted to pay her for all the games that she invents, and you recognize that the actual process of invention for which you are paying her may happen at any time… on weekdays, weekends, in the office, in the cubicle, at home, in the shower, climbing a mountain on vacation.

> So before you hire this developer, you agree, “hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not. I don’t just want to buy your 9:00-5:00 inventions. I want them all, and I’m going to pay you a nice salary to get them all,” and she agrees to that, so now you want to sign something that says that all her inventions belong to the company for as long as she is employed by the company.

> This is where we are by default. This is the standard employment contract for developers, inventors, and researchers.

On top of that, Google doesn't give a damn if you're spending some of your 9-5 hours walking around the buildings, surfing the web (or the infamous memegen), hanging out with coworkers at the microkitchen, or working out at the gym. Do you also consider these as unethical behavior by employees? By signing the employment contract, both parties are agreeing that they don't really care about 9-5 and work hours. They want all your brain's output, and they're going to pay for it. If you don't like it, you are free to walk away, but that doesn't make the contract "bullshit authoritarian".

I feel bad for people with this bootlicker mindset...

If I get sued for violating the contract well that sucks for me but I'm certainly not going to feel bad for it.

Words of a man with not much to lose. Once your net worth is in multiple millions, the calculation will change quite a bit. You will most definitely not want to lose your life's savings on a moral crusade.

Yeah of course, I'm not saying the contract wouldn't have an influence on my actions, just that I don't (and you shouldn't) feel a moral/ethical obligation to follow it.

And that's exactly what those contracts are aiming for: not to control your mind, but to establish a deterrent from much more nefarious shenanigans, if thoughts of such shenanigans arise. Some of the top Silicon Valley companies (dating all the way back to the 70's) would simply not exist if those contracts were followed to the letter.

Bootlicker? If you sign a contract, you are saying you're alright with it.

You're saying you're happy to reneg on contractual terms. Good luck in life but those of us who stand by our word want nothing to do with you.

> If you sign a contract, you are saying you're alright with it.

No, you are saying you don't want to be unemployed and starve on the streets.

> Good luck in life but those of us who stand by our word want nothing to do with you.

Standing by your word to other human beings is of course a commendable quality, standing by your word to corporations, not so much.

No one in our industry will "starve on the streets" in the foreseeable future. They may have to take a smaller paycheck with a contract that doesn't have the clauses they don't like, but let's not engage in histrionics here. And I agree with the parent, your choice of language is inappropriate and tiresome. You're posting to a forum read by literally thousands of people you're calling "bootlickers". Not smart.

As I said, signing such a contract doesn't make you a bootlicker. (I have signed such a contract myself.) But I can't for the life of me understand why people are feeling bad for working on side projects and not wanting to have the rights signed over to their corporate overlords. That's just a depressing ethical framework to live your life by. (Obviously I'm not talking about the Lewandowski espionage type case.)

Sorry, this isn't the only practical way for software companies. There are three main approaches: no mention at all (vague and bad for all parties), ownership of all related ideas developed on company time/company equipment [this is the only type of contract I will sign], and the company owns everything you do at any time.

Since both #2 and #3 have been used by companies, clearly #3 can't be the "only practical way".

> > Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty.

This is a terrible example. If the game designer delivers you 7 games during the year, that's a pretty clear indication that they are for you and are works for hire under the contract.

Also, if you are hiring her for game design, then off hours, she can't design games, because that is directly competitive. She can, however, design software that manages greenhouses. And that is as it should be.

If there are any games she designed on her own time that she doesn't want to be yours, she wouldn't have given them to you. If she kept one, launched it herself, and made a ton of money, you would probably have a claim. But she has no claim to games she gave you.

[Could she still sue? Sure, every example can be made into some court case with a possible terrible outcome -- that's called life. But this is not a realistic problem.]

> Also, if you are hiring her for game design, then off hours, she can't design games, because that is directly competitive.

Isn't that basically the same as saying that all games she design belongs to the company?

Yes, and it fits into option #2. It is work directly related to the company. And?

"Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty."

She wasn't paid for ideas, she was paid for intellectual property: code.

"hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not."

You don't need to prove whether something was invented while sitting on the chair. There's a pretty simple explicit transferral of intellectual property - you pushed it to the company github.

"that ONE GUY from 1998 who didn’t sign the agreement is going to be a real jerk about signing it now, because he knows that he’s personally holding up a $350,000,000 acquisition and he can demand a lot of money to sign."

Which happened when, exactly?

I've been involved in two diligence exercises (on the buy side), where not having IP assignment was an issue for the selling company.

I wasn't close enough on the selling side to figure out what concessions they needed to make to make the problem go away, but it absolutely can and does hold up acquisitions.

"not having IP assignment"

Was this specifically about a clause in an employees contract that allowed for side projects?

Or was it, say, about a software license purchased from another company? (which probably does happen, yes)

It's been a few years, but as I recall, both were early figures (unclear if employees or contractors) that had no signed IP assignment contract on file.

It really does. Especially when your options for "walking away" have similar bullshit authoritarian contracts.

Also, considering how much money megacorps can make of employees' ideas, I'd say that many aren't fairly compensated at all.

Doesn't the "we own all your output" line also sway employees against pursuing their own potentially world-changing ideas as well? Is that good for everyone?

I always like to think of these things from the worst likely scenario. What's the worst likely scenario that could happen from quitting to pursue your own ideas and travel? You take the 2 years, try out several startup ideas, none of which ultimately pan out, and you blow through your savings, forcing you to come back and look for a job that may be worse than your current one. Meanwhile, during those 2 years you got to travel, meet new people, experiment with new technologies you otherwise wouldn't have had a chance to in a corporate setting, and you took a shot at building something that can sustain you continuing in this lifestyle longer term. Even if they don't work out, they were likely stimulating and challenging ideas directly of interest to you.

When you think of it that way, what is there to be afraid of? At the end of the 2 years, you'll still be young with an improved tech skill set and in a great position to find solid employment when returning home. Maybe you don't end up working at Google anymore, but there are plenty of other opportunities out there. Don't be afraid, go for it...

I can't imagine you'll enjoy working elsewhere if you're not happy at Google. If you're an entrepreneur at heart, you'll likely not feel fulfilled until you're working on your own product. I'd say stick around Google (at least for the paycheck) as your mentor suggested until you have an execution plan. Also, if you decide to find another employer in the future, it will be more difficult to explain that you quit because you felt "unfulfilled" (that would scare me if I were considering hiring you); but if you quit to start your own company, that's a commendable act.

I have never regretted leaving a job. The only regrets are not leaving sooner.

Did you have another job lined up when you left?

If you're really an entrepreneur type, then your discomfort for working for a huge company will never go away.

Leave the squishy free breakfast huge happy company now and don't look back. You were never that googly to begin with, were you? :)

You are young and fresh, go see the world, see what else is out there. Go!

This was me when I left my last job, I have to say I do not regret leaving one bit.

What on earth makes you think that Google is the best possible place to work? People leave Google all the time pursuing something better.

If you have a good relationship with your employer you should be able to say "Hey I want to try something else for a while, but if things don't work out, I'd love to keep the doors open on both sides."

I've done this before with a few jobs, one of which I went back to after I left and the other thing I was pursuing didn't pan out. In the time I was gone I learned a tremendous amount about myself and what's possible. If you can something like this set this up, it's only a win-win.

A few reasons to not try something like this: (A) - you're worried you'll set back any career path you were on track for at google (B) - you're worried they won't take you back

Have no comment on (A) b/c for me I'm more interested in personal growth than specific career track at a specific company.

If (B) holds, why wouldn't they take you back? Top engineers are hard to come by. If you can't make a convincing case that you're in that top category of engineer, then what has working for Google earned you these past few years? (Other than $..)

IIRC Google is very open to internal transfers and theyou also have a 6 month grace period for you to return if you decide to leave.

There's no grace period as far as I know. That'd be stupid on their part: every keyboard jockey would immediately threaten to leave in hopes of getting a counter. Why not, if there's a "grace period"?Once you leave, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll want you back, even if you were doing well before you left. And that's by design.

When I left Google I was told I could come back within a year and not have to go through the full interview process. Just a few rounds of calls with recruiters a hiring manager. They apparently do this for anyone who goes out with high performance ratings on their last perf (Exceeds Expectations or greater).

Not a grace period per se, but pretty nice.

Yes you could, but there's no guarantee whatsoever they actually will let you come back. It's a subtle point which many people don't understand. The first part, them deciding to let you come back, is not deterministic. The second (no interview if you didn't suck before you left) is. I know several xooglers who went back (in one case 3 years after leaving, no interviews). I also know several who got their applications chucked into /dev/null, in spite of being kickass engineers and good people in all other regards.

> If you can't make a convincing case that you're in that top category of engineer, then what has working for Google earned you these past few years?

So are you suggesting that the 95% of people who are not to engineers are just waiting their time?

Maybe it's more along the lines of having become a "Google-idiot". Expert at using internal Google systems, or maybe even just a small subset of them, worse as a general engineer than when they started.

You're 26 years old with a high demand skill set, enough money to last a couple of years, and presumably no kids to consider - there will not be an easier time in your life to make this move. Certainly perform your due diligence at Google to make sure you're leaving on good terms with, ideally, the opportunity to come back at some point. But start planning your future now. Traveling the world for a few months will open your eyes to new project/company opportunities you will never even be exposed to sitting in Mountain View. If you're gonna be on the road longer than a few months, plan to pickup an open source side project to keep your skills sharp, build your network, and create a "balanced center" that you can return to no matter how foreign your surroundings.

Ah, to be young again with the world laid out at your feet! Not gonna lie, I'm a little jealous :) I wish you the best of luck and guarantee that, no matter what ultimately comes of it, you will never regret chasing your dream at least once in your life.

Leave Google, and travel wherever you want.

It will be harder later in life assuming you plan on being in a serious relationship and/or have children. When you are done, and realize that you have an idea- open a business. if you realize you don't have an idea, join a different place of work.

After traveling, you might not even want to do SWEing anymore, who know. you might want to go into permaculture! or a open a parking garage in Tokyo after meeting a nice person over there.

If you were 32 I would have a different opinion.

With all the crisis with millennias having to find meaning, not having a steady job and not saving for the future. I write these words and think "is my suggestion helpful?". in general, I hope saying to someone "go search where you think you will find yourself" is the healthiest thing. regret is a bitch later.

Here is a bonus new word to learn "Onism" it was coined by youtube channel called "Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows". you should take a look at it, it has a good sense if explaining how I feel about your question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrBlmpqh8T0

Good luck! being 26 will look a more naive time later in life, but don't only take my advice. i'm only 28.

> My mentor suggested to stay at Google until I find an interesting startup idea to work on.

This is a sound piece of advice.

However, it looks like you're very keen on traveling. Maybe you can take a 3-month unpaid sabbatical from Google, and see what it feels like?

Radical Sabbatical

Junior SWEs don't get a sabbatical, unpaid or otherwise.

How long before they can?

It's been a few years since I left, I don't remember. I do remember there are level and performance requirements, too, and there's no guarantee that they hold your old spot for you when you come back. So you do very much depend on the benevolence of your corporate masters.

How about plain-old unpaided leave?

6 months "to travel"? Your manager will laugh you out of the conference room. A month, that should be doable.

As a manager, I would listen to the IC's request, say "I'll see what options are available, let's come back to this next week in out 1-to-1", and then go to my boss to see how much time we can offer/how to implement a vesting holiday.

If the options are: lose someone for 6 months, or lose someone completely; I'd push strongly for the former.

You're a better manager than any of the ones I had at Google. That said, your boss might laugh _you_ out of the room, bringing us back to square one. He/she doesn't cherish the idea of hiring a replacement for the duration, or scaling back what he/she promised to _his/her_ boss (whew, those gender pronouns make it a mouthful). It's one thing if you need to care for a sick relative or something, any tech company will make accommodations. But to "travel" so you could gestate your startup idea -- that's pretty much a GTFO right off the bat.

> That said, your boss might laugh _you_ out of the room, bringing us back to square one.

That's been my experience as well, but I did manage to get that dev 3 months (up from 6 weeks).

Because... Sitting in a cubicle doing a job you don't like is a great inspiration to find startup ideas?

Probably. Def good place for high caliber cofounders.

"Leaving Google because feeling unfulfilled" is one thing. "Starting one's own company" is another. "Spending 6 months in SE Asia" is yet another. They don't necessarily work together toward a common goal: you have to decide what is the most important to you.

If you decide to leave Google because you don't like it, then obviously that's up to you, but if you truly want to start your own company, you have a much better chance of coming up with a good idea (and skills/networks to make it happen) if you work at Google than if you're traveling the world. Honestly I'm not sure how the travel and doing startup is even related.

That said, you're young and if you're good you can always get back to Google (or another similar company). So there's no big harm in trying something different and seeing if it works.

It sounds like you're bored, and you don't have a very good reason to start a company. Starting a company is hard.

A less drastic move is to find a job you'll actually like. They exist.

As someone who has done this a few times (worked for large enterprise / found a problem worth to solve / started a company solving that problem / being acquired by other enterprise that wanted our solution exclusively): don't look for "ideas", but explore "problems". Working in an enterprise is great, because you are exposed - every day - to things that do not work in enterprise. For each problem you meet, ask yourself "would someone pay enough $$$ to get this problem solved once and for all?". If the answer is yes (and the problem is inspiring enough for you to dedicate 5+ years on that) the next phase is: what the distribution channel for a solution would be? Is the market too fragmented? How I would reach out to customers? What would be the cost to attract/retain customers? If you figure it out (and it seems a problem/distribution channel that works) - the next step is to think about a generic solution. Now you can test the "let's try to attract customers, for this problem, on my prototype/landing page". If the cycle starts to work, now it's time to figure out whether you want to quit and build the company/product/solution for real. The good of this process is that is 100% compatible with whatever NDA/NC/IP you might have signed, because you haven't written any lines of code up to this point. And when you leave, you have a solid framework of what you'll be doing next.

I am in a very similar situation.

I work at Google and am happy with the team and the product I'm on. The pay is good and my manager has been very supportive, they treat me very well, etc. but I'm just very unhappy in my life and considering moving.

I have only been at Google a short time (less than 6 months) but I'm contemplating switching to another office or just outright quitting and moving to a cheaper city for a bit.

It's hard to turn down the money. I feel like that's what's keeping me there, especially with the 1 year cliff for my first batch of equity. I'm afraid one year will roll around and I'll still be unhappy but then it will be even harder to turn down the money.

Starting a company is really going to define you as a person. It forces a lot of hard decisions on you that get baked into your personality. The ups and downs are either euphoric and horrific. If things go poorly you will deal with self doubt and heartbreak on a very deep level. Even if things go well you may end up developing negative personality traits (hubris, callousness, aggression) that lead to loneliness.

My recommendation is to find a project idea that compels you, and at least one other bright and capable person that will help ground you. Most successful companies I've seen have started this way.

From an old guy. Stay just a little a bit longer. Another year or maybe two. Don't stay 10.

Stack up a little more cash, get a better plan.

Don't go away from something. Go towards something.

> Don't go away from something. Go towards something.

Exactly.

My question is: Have you stopped learning/growing at Google? Staying at Google is probably the safe path. But you're stuck at the Mothership; And as guilded the cage is, it's still a cage. I left my company and now enjoy my days visiting friends, family, biking, dog-walking etc. and work at nights (on the nights I want). My capacity to learn has increased 10-fold now that I'm not slogged down in a 9to5 job (I should add, I'm "old", 46). I've started 3 businesses that are in different stages, one already paying my monthly bills after just 2 months! All I can say is "FREEEEEEEEEDOM!" :-) That being said, Google pays amazing and you'll amass a good fortune that can give you guaranteed freedom if you keep your expenses low and save /invest properly for 8+ years. So the question is: Are you a gambling man? :-)

may i ask which business pays your bill? could you share a link? how did you get to find paying customers?

I'm curious as to what businesses you started? :) (email me! :D its in my profile)

> as guilded the cage is, it's still a cage

I know some googlers who described the engineering culture as hiring the brightest people to work on the dullest stuff. It's a giant company and lots of people do amazing things. But not everyone there is having a blast working on the cutting edge stuff. Someone has to maintain the google web toolkit gmail codebase.

I recently left Apple without a job lined up after years of debating whether or not it would be a good idea. (full story: http://minimaxir.com/2017/05/leaving-apple/)

The reason you're likely afraid is that despite having some safety with savings, the future is still uncertain, no matter how much you can prepare, and even with the credibility from working at a Big 4 tech company, that doesn't mean you'll automatically succeed in future endeavors. (see also prospect theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_theory)

Two years is too little experience for starting something. At google or any company that invest on formation, you can still learn a lot with relatively low stress. Once you start something you wont' have much time to study and you will pay for it (at least unpaid time). I had same ideas in my late 20's but if I look now at the projects they would have been disasters ;-) I waited a little bit.

With google in c.v. you will have door open everywhere. To start something you maybe also need to give a look to how work some other (maybe smaller) companies, maybe get hired, stay some months, observe, may be leave. This is what happened to me before starting to be on my own, but those were the crazy dot com bubble years (1999).

Freedom is nice but needs a lot of work.

Never worked at Google, but do you think you could take a sabbatical or long vacation to travel and think? I think the risk profile would be lower since if you do come up with something solid, you could leave, and if you don't, you'd still have a job. Maybe consider doing a side hustle as well? Or part timing or working remote to get away from it all.

You shouldn't leave google because of all the smart people you have around, which isn't the same in a startup world, and because there are multiple projects and divisions and companies you could jump to in order to learn about different things. You should do a startup if you have an itch and an idea that makes money and you like doing.

Go travel in SE Asia for 6 months. If that's what you want to do, then you should go do it. The problem with travel is either having the money but not enough time, or having the time but not enough money. You have both so you should seize the opportunity.

When you return, either you'll have an idea for a startup or you'll look for a new job. It is easy to explain a six month gap with travelling, especially with the stories to back it up.

Maybe see if you can take a sabbatical or leave of absence like others in the thread are suggesting. I'm hoping that your mentor is neither your manager nor on your team since otherwise you've already played your hand.

If you have dreams to travel, just do it. Spend a year backpacking and you will not regret it. Try and stay in an area for a month or longer. The experience will change you in positive ways and leave you will very memorable experiences you'll often think back on.

It's simply harder to travel when you're older, and you'll have many more obstacles to long trips.

If I may, I also really hope you make the trip without internet access.

Do you know how to:

* manage people?

* raise money?

* deliver/project manage?

* be a product manager?

Do you have:

* a set of friends who have a diverse set of non-SWE skills that are willing to join you?

* Determination to make shit happen?

* the ability to give up vacations and weekends for your startup?

Running a startup sounds romantic, but the reality is considerable less so.

Another option, why not find a startup that you can join remotely while traveling? Unless you really want to not work for 6 months, working during the week and exploring on the weekend while living anywhere might be a nice balance. You'll get experience that will help when you find what you want to do on your own. From a life standpoint traveling for some time is a great experience. From a career standpoint, having a 6 month gap in your resume at such a young age could be an issue. I hire a lot of engineers and to be honest if I saw somebody that worked at google for 2 years and then took 6 months off to travel I would really worry about their commitment. 2 years is about the absolute minimum you should stay at one company. Moving any more often tells me, as a hiring manager, that I risk taking a bet on you, training you, and then having you leave right when you actually start adding value. Obviously, this assumes you need to get another job if your startup doesn't work, but that is unfortunately the most likely outcome.

Any moderately successful startup/project idea I've had (I've had a few) came from frustrations/experiences at existing jobs or freelance projects. Same goes for other startups I've worked at (I've been at a few).

So unless you've already got a few things in mind from working at google or dealing with your side projects/passions, I wouldn't leave. You're probably _less likely_ to find a good idea by traveling and being in SE Asia. You're simply less exposed to the kind of problems that breed good startups and too far away from (potential) customers.

I don't know google's specific policy regarding side projects, but if you're in California you do have some rights (so long as you use your own time/computer and aren't competing).

My advice would be to (a) stay at Google, (b) start brainstorming ideas based on your current experience/passions/frustrations, (c) consider finding a co-founder, (d) build an mvp and find 1 customer, (e) quit and work from Asian once you get closer to product-market fit.

> My mentor suggested to stay at Google until I find an interesting startup idea to work on.

and

>I want to spend 6 months in SE Asia and travel the world before starting my company.

You may spend months trying to "find an interesting startup idea" to work on here and come up empty, whereas if you take off and spend even 1 month in SE Asia and the developing world, you might discover tons of startup ideas that are really worth solving for the 3rd world.

I know of several Indian-Americans who traveled in India for a few months, and built cost-effective phones that work on very low bandwidth, apps that help buy stuff in an almost all-cash economy.

A low-risk option would be to take a month off from Google (vacation) plan your trip in advance, visit just 1 single SE Asian country (Vietnam, India, Thailand whatever you fancy) and see what happens.

These countries also have coworking spaces with Hi speed internet, so you could in theory, take action on a startup idea, and build an MVP in a month's time (or even less) and drop it on the internets and see what happens.

I'm of the opinion that traveling the world isn't what it's cracked up to be. I traveled a bit, and outside of those brief fleeting moments where I witness something as breathtaking as the Great Wall of China, most of it was the same monotony as working on an exciting software project. That is, the traveling equivalent of mostly fixing bug tickets until the software equivalent of the Great Wall comes along.

These days I just watch other people on YouTube travel to exotic places and condense most of their lives down to the 4 minutes that's exciting.

So, in essence, there's a non-zero chance that traveling the world will not be much better than being at Google. On the flip side, if you do start the beginning of your startup idea in SE Asia, you'll have the benefit of a long runway since the cost of living is very low. But, if you're working on your idea there, it wouldn't be "traveling."

Just remember, the grass is always greener on the other side.

Re: starting your own company

Is there a problem which you see that no one is addressing? Please put aside software problems when considering this, since a start-up solving those sorts of problems is most likely to be acquired by a place like Google in 4-5 years, putting you in the same situation as you are now (perhaps with more money than if you stayed).

Have you worked at a small company? Are you excited to learn the skill necessary for running the day-to-day operations of a business?

Is there some subject that's always on your mind?

Do you have an idea who you want to help with your startup? Do you know anyone who matches your intended market? Can you think of a role or position that you could perform where you would meet more of your intended market (before starting your intended startup)?

Who in your professional network could you reach out to invite to work with you?

What's your goal? How much money? What will you do with your free time once you achieve it?

If your answer is "I don't know but I do know that I don't like it here", then definitely give notice and line up somewhere nice to go and have a think for 6 months or so.

I left Google to work on a couple different start ups that did not work out. It's not terrible but you miss out on the salary you would have earned had you stayed at Google.

If you want to travel and start a start up then do that. Google has a nice re-hire policy if you leave on good terms and have good perf reviews.

I think you should leave tomorrow.

I'm 36, started in tech 20 years ago. And the only things I regret was working for someone too long, focusing on the wrong startups for too long (and yes, you can tell which ones are the bad ideas - mainly if they're too big and not focused).

The main driver of building your own stuff is necessity, pressure. And the main fuel is time to strategise and think. So by quitting your job you basically have all the needed tools.

And then you just need to get involved with things to find the right idea - talk to people, do things, try this, try that, until you find something that works and validate it. Watch different industries, see where tech could reinvent things. Take your time until you find something worthwhile, make sure it can be profitable in a short amount of time. And consult with people who've done it.

I agree staying too much is usually not good, but you worked for many companies, he only for one. Observing many companies (or at least some) is very useful.

Of course leaving a well-paid job for your dreams is scary -- you don't have a plan! That's not a criticism, that's just how it works. If you were comparing two plans, you could more easily decide what's better. But right now you're comparing "stay with what I know" with "maybe my dreams will come true or maybe I'll die a failure in two weeks".

My advice? Go talk to a therapist (not a mentor, but an actual psychologist) about what you want to do. That person can help you figure out what you're afraid of, and how you can deal with it.

Assuming you have a great Google salary, I would live frugally and have enough money to be financially independent / retire in 5 years.

Then travel or work on whatever you please for the entire rest of your life!

I left Google as well.

Not many workplaces will match Google in terms of overall lifestyle, but there are companies that come close. And others can beat it in terms of pay (Google's base pay, for example, sucks).

I'd recommend leaving. The company is becoming more boring to work at all around. I've heard this from many friends. More enterprise focused, short-term money driven and less willing to innovate, mostly monetizing internal technologies or playing catch-up to other companies. It's a good time to try something else.

It's not just fear. It's fear of the unknown. You admit this is your 1st ever job, so it can be hard to calibrate expectations from employment. It's not all great though, and even at a great company, you just might be in the wrong place or working on the wrong product.

I think personal fulfillment is key to good development as a person. You say you're unfulfilled. Why? Can you make a list? Where do you think things might be different?

I'd also encourage you just to look for a job, and maybe take some interviews (perhaps at startups you think are in an interesting field). This might give you some more perspective, and either let you realize that you want to do something else - or let you recognize how good you have it, and that you shouldn't be taking it for granted. Also, recognize the difference between the perception of starting your own business vs actually doing it. It's a lot of work. It can be great, but it is certainly easier to jump on a small company that is doing something you think is interesting.

You don't know what you've got till it's gone. But you will have many jobs in your life, so I'd just suggest you not get too hung up on any one particular job, and view it more as a long journey of exploration.

Think of it this way, would you jump in a luxurious train that can only travel through 10 cities max? Or would you jump in a dirty, cheap and slow train that can go on forever and potentially reach your final destination? Right now you're seating in the 1st class in a local train. You're at the top of the mini-chain. That's what we call the "standard" world. You're dreaming about the "exciting" world, the top %1. When you make the switch you have to jump off the comfy train and you end-up losing your spot. It took you a while to get there. Plus, you'll have to find a spot within that dirty train. Life's tough heh?

People don't like to take risks because they're afraid of making a step backwards. That's where you're are now. The competition starts at an early age, school, college, you want to have the best grades, then your first internship you want to land the best gig in the best company. When you apply you want to work in the best team. But it's really contained within the standard world right? Who defines your goals and your paychecks? People from the "exciting" world. Not you. You can't reach the top %1 because you work for them. You make them what they are. Do it for yourself, be selfish.

You're already going in the right direction, the problem is, you're in the wrong train. Jump off while you're young you'll run fast enough to hop on the dirty train. The journey is long but one day you'll wake up at your final destination. We'll all die one day. You have nothing to lose my friend but a seat in 1st class.

Do you have the option to take an unpaid leave of absence for 1-2 months? This way you can travel and sort yourself out without jeopardizing your job.

But hey, you're young so go ahead and be reckless! Leave your job, blow your savings, come back to the States and see how quickly you are able to find a new job of the same caliber. You're in a very advantageous position and a reality check like that should put things into sharper relief for you.

I wouldn't quit without a firm idea of what you want to start; leaving your current role without an idea is likely to leave you more bored and questioning your decision. Having sold a company and worked at Facebook (not Google, but a great place), I'd suggest a long travel where you disconnect and think about what you want. As others have mentioned, you're young (29 here) and have plenty of time to work it out.

What's your vacation schedule been like so far? Just curious if you're recently recharged or in need of one.

Worked for small software company for 4 years. wasn't interesting work but company was in Hawaii, so could surf every day. Travelled 8 months in SE Asia. Stayed home a while and 3 months in central American. I had some of the best times of my life. Not only fun, the culture is so different and amazing. Opens your mind in so many ways. The freedom of doing what you feel like without worrying of having to be at a job in a few weeks or months is priceless. 2 years after leaving my job, needing to find a job I feel like a have a huge gap in my CV. But it was totally worth it for me, maybe I didn't have prestigious job like yours but if you have worked for Google, you won't have any problem finding work if they don't want you back.

It is a great workspace. Probably the best you will ever be able to work at, if you value stability and having a paycheck. But thE goog employment contract is more like a cult or indentured servitude, and really gives you insight to what is going through their minds as far as their Human Resources.

So give it to them right back, and don't lick the corporate boots. I'd work hard (or at least look like it) because they pay you well, but that's it. Every day you should be thinking about your next venture or startup, once you have something mvp profitable just quit and do that. You can find another sw job, startup, grad school or whatever but you cannot get your life back. Don't waste it on the safe option.

Startup life is really hard - you will have to answer questions much harder than this every day if you do a startup. Therefore, based on my own first hand experience and observation on more than 100 startups I funded, only passion, determination and persistence can make your startup a success.

From this point of view, all the questions can come back to the root question - are you really passionate, determined and persistent by nature? If no working at Google or any other giant companies is way better than doing your own startup; Otherwise, you shouldn't come to Hacker News to ask this question but you have already quit Google because working at Google for one more day is just a waste of your time one more day.

Just noting that starting a company is a huge amount of often unrewarding work and unless you have a business co-founder you're going to be doing a lot of non-SWE work which you may find frustrating. Even with a business co-founder you're likely going to be wearing a lot of non-SWE hats. It's definitely gotten easier to start a company, with all sorts of tools and services to make it easier but that is a relative term. It's still long days, constant sales (selling the idea to yourself, VCs, potential employees, etc), and dark nights wondering why you're bothering. It definitely takes some hubris engineers don't always seem to have (which isn't a bad thing).

Google is a good place to work, but it is not the only good place to work, and in some cases it is not even the best place to work. If you have what it takes to get in at Google, there are any number of places you could work, so you wouldn't be giving up a lot if you stepped down for whatever purpose, whether travel or entrepreneurship.

You are very young with, I'm guessing, no large responsibilities outside your job. You also have a bit of money. That means you are now free as you will probably never be again to do what you want. Take this chance to do so if you feel at all inclined.

The job at Google is in the end just a glorified joe-job, and it or something very much like it will still be there if you ever want back.

There is a lot of unknowns - At the moment you're working somewhere which is easily considered one of the best places in the world to work, maybe you feel different, but the global perception and aurora will likely still influence you in some way.

Not only are you considering leaving this, but it would be to stat up a new any untested company which you are ultimately responsible for.

I'm not saying your job at Google is 'easy', however it's clearly going to be an easier and more comfortable paycheck.

Following what others have said, you should probably come up with your startup idea, and try validate with some kind of MVP before taking the plunge and leaving.

You're 26 with a skill-set that's in demand and you've worked for a company that will give you some clout moving forward. So you should be fine in that regard. If you're truly passionate about starting your own business, that'll win out in the long run. Don't pressure yourself into making a decision prematurely. Take your time. Maybe write down all the pros and cons for both staying and leaving. At the end of the day, making a well-informed decision is what I'd like to see anyone do in this situation. Living with regrets can be tough and you owe it to yourself to pursue your dreams.

Yikes, you're giving me déjà vu. I did exactly what you're thinking of doing when I turned 25. Google was my first job out of school, and I worked there for 3 years. I also had a mentor at the time who was encouraging me to stick around.

I went off and did my own startup for 2.5 years, and then wound up crawling back to corporate America.

I believed in 'following my passion' when I left, and I definitely wasn't finding that at Google. After all, my last project there was building automated tools to serve legal requests for Google+ - not exactly what you have in mind when you join.

A couple of things I wish I had known when I left:

- Following your passion is bunk. Most people don't understand themselves well enough to know what they're passionate about. There are always going to be parts of jobs that you don't like, even when you're working on your own stuff. I actually found the percentage of dislike to increase when I was doing my own stuff - I had to do sales and marketing for my own company. I never had to worry about that at Google.

- A lot of people try to find some larger meaning for what they're working on. I always wanted to work on 'something really important', and I wasn't finding that at Google. Problem is there just aren't that many 'really important' things. Even if you work on phenomenally successful products like the iphone, you could argue that product did not make the world much better in any meaningful way. What's worse, 80% of software developers spend their careers making glorified CRUD apps, or worse.

But this problem goes away if you just drop your need for doing something important. Nowadays, I don't care about the larger meaning of what I'm doing. I don't get hung up on that mental argument. I just take immense pleasure in the craft of producing software. Writing code is wonderful - you get to solve puzzles all day and learn new things. If that code changes the world, then great, but I don't 'need' it anymore.

- Pay - quitting Google cost me 1/2 a million dollars. I didn't make squat in my startup over the next 2.5 years. When I went looking for a job (I'm in Colorado), I realized that Google pays in the 90th percentile, and it was hard to find companies who would match my former salary.

So in retrospect, I probably would have stayed and just worked on side projects to satisfy my curiosity while I continued to make bank at my day job.

There are many, many wonderful things about Google - the people are all super smart and competent, the internal systems rock, HR 'just works', things like expense reports aren't a pain in the ass, and you can go off and explore awesome internal technologies.

Yes, you might spend some time working on 'boring' stuff, but that's going to be true at any job.

Anyway, that's just me, and I have a ton of perspective. I never would have found that perspective if I hadn't quit, so everyone has to follow their own journey.

Good luck.

> building automated tools to serve legal requests for Google+

That is a narrow AI development. Why weren't you excited?

I cannot recommend traveling highly enough. I was in a similar spot as you and left Google last year in February to travel. The plan was to travel for 6 months but I ended up doing it for 11 months.

After returning back in January this year, I joined a super early stage startup and couldn't be more happier.

You are in a great position. Do what you really want to do and don't let fear hold you back. Life is too short to spend time on things you don't really enjoy. Feel free to reach out (email in profile) if you want to chat more.

My suggestion. Forget the startup for the moment (unless you already have an idea) plan a 6 month trip to Asia. Take some time planning it, figure out the best time to go. Then quit shortly before you go. When you get back take some more time off, work on your own project, or some open source. Our maybe you came up with an idea. Then go back to Google, or somewhere else. The thing is you are young enough to stop also be able to get a job. And who knows, maybe you will find a better one.

Fear of regrets is not a good justification for avoiding a change, especially when you are young and healthy. That said, it seems you fo not have a well understood goal and just want to run from Google. If so, I'd flesh out where you want to go next and the way to get there before you make the jump.

Once you do I think you will feel a lot less worried -- your cash cushion is pretty hefty to allow for quite a bit of risk

Change careers like tarzan:

https://sivers.org/tarzan

where I live this joke is used for people that change relationships in that way

> My mentor suggested to stay at Google until I find an interesting startup idea to work on.

IMO the odds of this happening is very slim compared to you going out on your own. When you travel around you get to experience a lot of problems first hand and then solutions to those problems come naturally to you.

This is simply not true. In fact, working at Google will expose you to all kinds of interesting ideas and problems. Many of those problems will just sit there because Google can't prioritize them right now.

yes, google is too good a salary to leave. for most people. or at least that's what i understand. I consider it unlikely your startup would succeed as like 9/10 do not. being at google is prestige and money. so if you want the most prestige or money, i recommend staying.

but money as they say is not everything. the amount you saved up counts for more the further away you get from the place you are now. perhaps there are places you could happily live out the rest of your life with the money you have now. so in that case and it sounds like you want this, yeah go have some fun :)

I'm a manager of PMs at Amazon. Also 26 and also trying to quit and travel SE asia for 3-6 months. Email me if you'd want to talk: jstoneproductions@gmail.com. It's scary for sure.

Let's count all the reasons not to leave:

1) If you don't have an amazing idea now, leaving won't make it easier. If anything it will be worse since you won't be constantly exposed to real-life problems.

2) Building great product is about a lot more than ideas. It's about execution, timing, scaling and a ton of luck.

3) After only two years at Google you're probably an L3 or L4 engineer. You have much to learn. Seriously. It probably took you a year to become productive so you've only scratched the surface. Go find a senior mentor and get them to talk about their journey. You'll be surprised.

4) Startups are hard. Don't believe the hype. Your startup will fail you. Even if the startup succeeds, you personally are unlikely to hit a payday. Remember the Golden Rule: Those who have the gold make the rules. The most likely outcome from any startup is that it fails. The second most likely outcome is that it fizzles and gets bought. Your equity would turn into a diluted options over 4 years.

5) In another 3 years at Google you'll save so much money that you'll have an entirely different set of financial options

6) Your long term career impact and financial success will actually be better off if you find a way to apply your ideas and passions within Google.

7) You are currently surrounded by some of the smartest software people in the world working on some of the hardest problems.

8) Look for a transfer to one of Google's SE Asian offices. Lots of interesting projects there.

To be blunt, it sounds like you're finding out that working as a software engineer is, well, work. It is. That doesn't mean you can't find your passion in what you do.

Buy yourself your own computer and work on your dreams at home while receiving the engineering and execution experience of your lifetime. Actively seek to learn more about your craft from a company that is still writing the book on this. Take advantage of internal instruction opportunities to expand your skillset (where else will you get paid to learn about ML from some of the best). Once you've earned your stripes at Google you'll be able to work anywhere on a just about anything. You'll also find that you actually understand the realities of product development and software engineering in ways you do not today.

I started working at Microsoft in the late 80s. I'm now at Google as a PM. I've done a bunch of startups and consulting along the way. My career has spanned over 30 years and there's no doubt in my mind that it was the time at Microsoft that gave me experience, skills and opportunities I would never have had elsewhere.

If your heart is set on the romance of startups, go find it. You'll learn a lot there too. Just don't do it because you're bored of work.

PM me if you want an extended version of this with Google insider specifics.

With Google on your resumé, you won't have problems to find another job. Travel the world for one year, use the second year to find a more fullfilling activity.

Honesty it's a no brainer.

Almost every time someone starts a question on with a "Why shouldn't I [...]" my answer is "If you don't know why, then you should [...]".

It seems like most everyone here agrees that you're not more likely to think of a idea after you leave Google to travel. What about to go back to school?

You should have a specific idea and not just the desire to start a company. I'd recommend waiting until you have that idea.

Yea, man, don't quit your day job.

Unless you got a sure thing lined up.

Unless you got a thirst for high risk. It's your life, man.

SE Asia? Come to Philippines, there are a lot of startups here and so much to solve out here.

Your first ever job is at Google? At 24? And no loan debt? How is that even possible. Not to be a dick, but honestly it sounds like your family is wealthy enough that you can do whatever you want.

> Your first ever job is at Google? At 24? And no loan debt? How is that even possible.

You go to school in Canada ($10k/year tuition) and do internships in the US ($8k/month salary). Not uncommon at all and doesn't require any family money.

I got paid 15 an hour for both of my coding internships. $8k a month is more than I make as a full time dev in the US with an advanced degree.

In fact I've known hundreds of engineers over the years and none of them got paid that much for an internship.

Maybe you know some really lucky people, either rich or in the top 0.1% of intelligence. What you're describing and the setting OP is in are extremely unusual situations. Complaining about working at Google for your first job and having enough money to not work for years is like complaining that your private jet is too small.

Lowest I've ever heard of is $4k a month for an internship in the SF Bay Area. $8k is the highest I took home but all my US internships were over $6500. This was throughout 2011-2013.

If you're making less than $8k/month as a full time dev in the US you're either in a very low CoL location or you really need to switch jobs.

If you ever visit Myanmar, send me an email.

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