Ask HN: Idea on hacking motivation to be more active and healthy; thoughts? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Idea on hacking motivation to be more active and healthy; thoughts?

9 pointsjaredcollett11 comments

So you’ve purchased the latest activity tracker: fitbit, garmin, apple watch, etc. Your activity is being tracked automatically. You get to see your friend’s activity and compete with them. However you still need more motivation when it comes to being active and healthy.

My name is Jared Collett founder of an app called Better Habits (iOS) and myself and others I know personally feel this way. I’m setting out to try and understand just just how many others feel this way as well.

In order to present a respectable solution, I need more data. With the help of some friends, this is what I’ve come up with so far. I’d like you to tear it apart, rebuild it, add to it, express your unfiltered thoughts on how you would solve this problem.

Basic workflow, outlined in graphic flowchart below :

1. User set an activity goal: close all rings 5 days a week 2. User sets stake: $5 for every day they fail their goal 3. User activity is automatically tracked with activity tracker; Fitbit, Garmin, Apple Watch, etc. 4. If user fails to complete goal, their stake goes into community pot 5. Other users compete over money in the pot to send it to the charity of their choice by being active 6. App takes 20% of stakes to maintain and improve system.

Think StickK, Beeminder, Pact: Updated, easy, and automatically tracked

Flowchart graphic: http://imgur.com/a/CNDKv

Big fan of innovation in this space, so glad you're working on this. I remember coming across Beeminder some time ago, and liking the idea, but not actually pulling the trigger on trying it out. I wonder if it has to do with some cognitive dissonance around the financial commitment device. We want to think of ourselves as having some semblance of self-control & an ability to stick to previously defined goals, but opting in to a system that punishes you for failure forces you to come to terms with the fact that you don't in fact trust yourself.

I have no doubt this works for some people, but there's something missing for me. Maybe it's just that I prefer positive reinforcement.

Out of curiosity, how will you differentiate from Beeminder? Is it the social pot that you suspect makes this dynamic more powerful?

Hey, thanks for taking the time to check this out and give your thoughts. I completely agree with you that in general we want to think of ourselves as having self-control, and in a lot of aspects we do, some of us more than others. It's kind of like the 'place something on top of my keys the night before so I don't forget it' approach. In the evening, this would be easy to remember, I am sharp and aware, but in the morning, I know from past experiences that I'm not as sharp and need a little help. What I want now, vs what I want later.

I think both positive and negative reinforcement are effective. It obviously depends on the person, situation and other factors. My thought with this idea is that the positive re-inforcement aspect of activity when it comes to activity monitors is already being tackled by the big companies, fitbit, garmin, apple health, google fit, etc. However on the 'penance' side of things, it's underrepresented and the options are far from streamlined and easy imho.

My opinion on Beeminder is that it's designed for highly-technical people. The idea would be to present a solution that is similar to Beeminder that anybody can easily understand and use. There are also other highly motivating aspects that beeminder doesn't use such as social accountability (fitbit), charities (StickK and many others), and competition (fitbit, apple, etc.).

Thanks again for the thoughts and inquiry, I'd love to keep the convo going. My current goal is to flesh out any lingering thoughts on how the idea could be improved so that I can create more of a polished model to present to the public and gage interest.

As a cofounder of Beeminder, this makes tons of sense to me! Plenty of room for a less nerd-focused take on this (we're heaving on the Quantified Self side) and other forms of motivation hacking besides commitment contracts based on graphs.

I should mention that we do have a partial charity option in our fancypants premium plan: http://blog.beeminder.com/infinibee (Beemium plan, $32/mo)

And we have a tiny bit of social accountability with this feature: http://blog.beeminder.com/supporters

Btw, I'm not sure about your term "penance" here. I mean, I see how you're using it for monetary commitment contracts, I'm just not sure I agree with the term. To me it implies assuaging guilt after the fact. I think commitment contracts are all about shaping incentives before-the-fact.

I like it and would use it today, although I prefer phone/accelerometer tracking over wearable tracking. It's more accurate, cheaper, and easier to use.

Also, I don't use Apple products and likely never will. It'd be nice if you started out with a cross-platform framework (React Native, Haxe, NativeScript, Appcelerator -- something has to appeal to you) to provide early support for both iOS and Android. As a developer, I'm less and less convinced that Android support is "too expensive" to deliver immediately or early.

Thanks for the response smt88. The idea would be to use anything that Google Fit tracks so that would include any kind of phone/accelerometer tracking where the data feeds into Google Fit.

Also thanks for the feedback on cross-platform support. Unless the interest in very lopsided toward one platform, the plan will be to roll out on both Android and iOS.

I've love to get your thoughts further on a few things.

1. The bare bones MVP would just be a system that takes your money when you fail to perform. 100% of the money would go to the app. This would cut out the need to build a social network which would cut down the initial production substantially. What would you think about a product like that?

Bare bones example : http://imgur.com/a/H520t

2. On the other side of things, adding more complexity, it's been mentioned to add 'factions' such as Yankees vs Red Sox. The initial user would set up an anti-charity, fail to perform, put money in pot, can continue to be active to rescue some of the money, but there are other players being active to send the money to their team.

more complex example : http://imgur.com/a/Ixc3u

Just curious to hear your thoughts on either of these or any other scenarios where you think it would enhance motivation.

Thanks so much, cheers!

1. I'd use it. Does it exist already though? The concept sounds familiar.

2. This is a little harder for me to endorse. Here are some ways I can see it being implemented:

a) Factions aren't tied to a charity. They're competing for the money, and then they get to vote on the charity at the end of the competition period. As a competitor, I'm not trying to take money away from ACLU (or any other charity). I'm trying to take it away from the Red Sox.

b) Factions are tied to a charity, and both charities are positive (e.g. one supporting cancer research, one supporting HIV research). This is OK I guess, but if the money is going to a great cause either way, I might feel guilty for trying to hoard it for my faction.

c) Factions are tied to a charity, and I hate one of the charities (e.g. my faction supports cancer research, the other faction supports the NRA). This is bad. Don't do this.

Thanks for the extra input. The concept sort of exists, but is not easy to understand or is accessible for most people imho. The closest app was Pact in 2012-14, which had huge success, but now appears to be abandoned.

This is really great input. I agree that the charities would have to be delicately balanced in order to be motivating and tasteful at the same time. There are a lot of ways it could go wrong.

What would you think about, instead of the charities having the money go into a bank that you could earn back over time. Say after a month you've paid $50 in penalties, each time you're active you earn a portion of that back. Also, let's say there's attrition on the funds over time, you only have so much time to earn the money back before it's gone for good? This is a 4th option that's been coming up after talking to others.

p.s. another thought could be that your friends can steal your bucks if they're hitting more of their goals than you?

Super exciting to see your thinking and progress on this! Let me know when you're ready to be added to http://blog.beeminder.com/competitors

And here are our thoughts on charities: http://blog.beeminder.com/anticharity

Oh yeah, and we have some very old thoughts on Pact (originally GymPact) and the idea of the winners paying the losers here: https://blog.beeminder.com/gympact/

Tons of room for competitors doing commitment devices and other motivation hacking. I chuckled/winced at "Beeminder but for less highly technical people" -- we'll get there! :)

Mr. Reeves! Holy sh*t, I'm honored! I hope I didn't come down too hard on Beeminder, I certainly didn't mean to. I honestly think you guys are one of the only companies with the balls to do penance right. Imho I really don't think the majority of people understand just how powerful it can be.

On another note, so much of my research that has gone into this has come from your site. You guys are an amazing example of brave transparency. What you guys have shared publicly has been incredibly helpful to me while trying to posture with a way to innovation in this space. So thank you so much for that!

I appreciate you chiming in here as well and the resources you shared. I'd love to run other ideas in this space past you as I'm sure you have more experience than just about anyone.

Lastly I'd also love to pick your brain on Pact, I'm curious if you have any insight into what happened? It seems like it's been abandoned, but it still has a ton of users that want to use it.

May be interesting to add different competition modes.

One of which could be a one time group competition.

For example, an office competition, a goal is set by the competition owner, they set the prize amount, % that goes to charity, % that goes to the winner.

They invite the participants and set the duration of the event.

Lots of companies have programs as part of their benefits to encourage exercise, etc. You could partner with benefits companies to set up the competitions for their clients.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read and respond. I think this is a great idea. I just got feedback yesterday from a girl who said fitbit itself wasn't motivating, but the 'Workweek hustle' with her co-workers was crazy motivating. So yeah, imagine that with money on the line. Or within companies, it could be time-off or other sought-after/dreaded things.

This idea also opens up the doors to a B2B sales model which we all know is a completely different experience from B2C when bootstrapping.

Thanks again, if anything else comes to mind, I'd love to hear it

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