Microsoft needs immigrants, Facebook doesn't | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft needs immigrants, Facebook doesn't

alleyinsider.com

8 pointsdaviday16 comments

This article completely misses the point. I want to know how many of the non-H1B workers at Microsoft used to be H1B's. And how about finding out percentage of engineers at all these companies. And personally I am so sick of hearing all these BS stories of H1B's stealing American jobs with low wages. I used to be on H1B and I made (and still do) more that all my friends who are American citizens or green card holders. I have green card now, and that hasnt affected my pay in any way.

Ok, for those against H-1Bs, tell me how many good programmers you know that don't have a job, or can't find one? My company is hiring, and they have hard time filling slots. Even fresh undergrads are taking in multiple offers. I'd like to see a H-1B reform, where there are more safeguard put in place against fraud (body shop abuses), and more green cards available.

Some people dream that if H-1B supply is cut off, engineers will get paid as much as lawyers and doctors, it is not going to happen. Once wages get to a pain threshold, companies will outsource even more. Unlike a doctor or engineer, you don't have to be at the location to build software. The engineers in the USA will be left only for jobs that have to be done locally. A good lawyer or doctor earn knowledge thru accumulated experience, and a 10 to 15 years of experiene. In Engineering, the learning experience curve is max 5 years. There is great chance, whatever you are doing now, that in 5 years it will be obsolete, and you will be re-learning from the beginning.

H1Bs are not "immigrants". We are non-immigrant alien workers.

Uh, hello? Almost any one of Microsoft's mainstream product lines is bigger than Facebook. Office vs. Facebook? Office. Windows vs. Facebook? Windows. Xbox vs. Facebook? Xbox. MSN Search vs. Facebook? Probably MSN Search.

Congratulations are due to Facebook for managing to scale their one product, pre-business-model, without H1-B's.

I'm not an advocate for H1-B visas (though we could have a spirited debate about their merits vs. offshoring), but this is a pretty silly article.

You don't want foreigners coming to the country to work?

Do you? I wonder if you have a feel for the correct number. One million a year? Two million? One hundred million?

If your line of work is such a commodity that the wage goes down to zero as the number of workers increases then you're not in very good shape already.

Take lawyers. Even when there are far too many people who meet the minimal qualifications, the better ones still get payed a huge amount because those who are paying them recognize the value of quality.

There will still be lots to exclude outsiders from higher pay even if it becomes easer for them to get in.

The underlying assumption seems to be that H1B = cheap labor? As far as I know, this is certainly not the case.

Then you're dismissing the entire argument against them. The primary problem people have with H1Bs isn't protectionism, it's that H1Bs are held hostage by their employers (even after 2000, it is tricky for many visa holders to change jobs and retain legal working status).

The result is that the market for H1B labor is corrupted in favor of employers, perverting the fair market wage for developers. Prior to 2000, there were all sorts of horror stories about poorly trained tech workers living in dorms working for half the prevailing wage; they were probably not all made up.

It is difficult to change companies if you are on L1B (intra-company transfer from a foreign country). If you are on H1B, you can change any time.

I am just curious to find out why people think L1Bs/H1Bs are cheap labor. May be it is a popular myth?

I came here in 2003. I was getting above "market salary" even then. Now I get way more - about twice the market salary (I've got skillz man! :-p) - which is the only reason I am hesitating to quit my job to do my startup full time.

I know many people who are on L1B and H1B. I don't know of even one underpaid person! USCIS is really strict on reviewing your W2s. Even the supposedly hostage L1Bs are payed fair salary. May be the situation was bad before 2000 and has been since corrected? I don't know.

[voted you up]

Where'd you come in from, and who placed you?

India.

Cognizant (ticker: CTSH)

Why do you ask?

To round out the data point you provided. Sorry for sounding terse.

Being opposed to immigration is different from opposing H1B. I'm not a big fan of H1B but I would pave the road with gold for more talented developers and scientists to come work in America.

One change I would make to H1B would be to auction them to companies instead of granting them. That would shut up the cries of "We can't hire anyone". If you really can't find anyone in the US at any price, you'd happily bid on an H1B to find someone. If you're just a cheapskate and don't pay market wages, then why do you think you should be able to rip off foreign citizens?

Sure I do. I just don't want special-interest employer exemptions from immigration law that deliberately creates an artifically cheap supply of temp workers.

The alternative to H1B is offshoring, which is clearly worse than immigration.

Same as I was thinking.

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