Cat5 to replace HDMI later next year? | Hacker News Reader

Cat5 to replace HDMI later next year?

thinq.co.uk

61 pointsallwein46 comments

Seems like they have invented their own signaling standard. They claim to move uncompressed HD video, audio, 100 watts of power, 100mbs of ethernet, and "control signals" over the cable.

I initially assumed they were just using a protocol over ethernet, but it looks like they have something better worked out.

They don't get into details, but it looks like 10-20Gbps for the video data. The 100 watts of power is twice what can be achieved with Power-over-ethernet.

The visible fly in the ointment is looming confusion over internet ports and AV ports since they use the same connector.[1]

[1] And a thousand curses on the toad at IBM that used identical connectors for keyboards and mice but incompatible protocols. That was probably a 1 million man hour mistake.

What gets me about the keyboard/mouse ports is that it took over ten years for them to get a colour coding standard! The green/purple spec came out in 99, by which time USB was already starting to take off.

Funny story: I was working on USB at IBM in '98, and because of the new green/purple color convention for PS2, the designers wanted to similarly color-code two of the USB ports green/purple. It took a little explaining, and pointing at the USB 1.0 spec to convince the design folks that it wasn't a good idea.

When people need to know where the "Any" key is, maybe having a suggested port for mouse and keyboard wasn't such a bad idea.

Didn't Packard Bell invent the green/purple standard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_97

> The 100 watts of power is twice what can be achieved with Power-over-ethernet.

If it is just passive power (not switched on based on some protocol interaction) it's going to be fun when people end up plugging this into their laptop's ethernet slot instead of its HD slot.

"Try plugging into one port. If you see sparks and smoke come out, try the other port."

Ethernet is supposed to be AC coupled through transformers, so PoE which is DC doesn't (or shouldn't) affect non-PoE devices. The DC voltage is the same on both wires in a differential pair, so no DC current flows through the transformer's input coil either. PoE is extracted at the center tap of the transformer. If the designers of this new standard have any sense, they'll have done it the same way. So sorry, no fireworks today.

Thanks for explaining.

I obviously didn't know how this is supposed to work.

The visible fly in the ointment is looming confusion over internet ports and AV ports since they use the same connector.[1]

No no no. This new method puts both on the cable simultaneously.

I believe there is 100mbps that can be split out to an ethernet, but I don't see any evidence in the current press releases that a regular old 100base-T phy device can be plugged into an HDbase-T socket. It would be nice though. Then I just have to not plug my AV gear into my 1000base-T network.

Would this be a simple firmware or software upgrade or would this require new hardware for it to work?

Since it entails serious changes at the hardware level firmware upgrades would not be enough.

Not to nitpick, but physical layer for TMDS (digital video protocol used by HDMI and DVI-D) _IS_ Cat5 twisted pair :)

Whatever happened to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Peak ?

(hyped and hyped a few months ago as the ultimate cable answer to everything, replacing USB, firewire, ethernet, HDMI, SATA, etc.)

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. For every protocol that caught on, there was a similar competing protocol proposed at the same time that never caught on.

This is such a good idea that it must have no chance of ever becoming reality.

If it has come out before HDMI and DP, it would indeed have been a great idea.

Now if only someone can invent a connector that doesn't have a brittle little tab that is bound to snap off or snag on wires. HDMI and DP connections are far more rugged.

Indeed so, but consumers are suspicious of new connectors, as are motherboard manufacturers, fearing that they're being asked to spend a bunch of money on a new format that won't connect to anything else. Like...er...HDMI. Upgraded functionality to something everyone already knows (cat5) is a much easier sell psychologically.

I don't think the brittleness is a big issue. Pro a/v techs often use heavy duty cat5 cables with rugged connectors (http://www.amphenol-airlb.com/Rugged.html - this is the best supplier IMHO). Then, making cables just needs a supply of jacks and a crimping tool - neither is expensive, and being able to do field repairs or make additional cables is a lot better than some custom connector that can only be built in a factory. Finally, power and signal on the same cable is a huge win.

In the video world, it's very desirable to be able to quickly feed signal over varying distances in some new location you've never been into before and will only occupy for a few hours. HDMI cables are a pain, like all fiberoptic cables - very expensive, short runs, and they're so delicate that they need lots of structural shielding which makes the cable springy and hard to manage (which usually necessitates an extra pair of hands). Then, monitors and cameras need power, which means either annoying little adapters plus additional heavy power cables, or else heavy battery packs (which cost $$$).

If the component electronics for this standard are affordable and reliable (and I expect they will be, given similar existing products) then the pro video community will be all over this in short order - a breakout box that delivers 12v DC, has audio & video i/o, and hooks onto a belt will be a godsend for many people even if the camera and sound gear doesn't catch up for a few years. 100w is plenty of power for most requirements.

From what I see of the evaluation units (http://www.valens-semi.com/products/5play-evaluation-kit.asp...) the technology should be easily deployable, and 'revolutionary' would not be too strong a word to use in this context.

I've never had a tab break off when I've remembered to put one of those rubber caps (apparently aka. "strain relief boots") on the cable.

http://www.amazon.com/RJ45-Black-Strain-Relief-Boots/dp/B000...

Oh don't worry, Monster cable will have you covered there. It'll only be $50 more, but you'll never have to worry about that tab snapping off again...

Monster might have a hard time selling Cat5 cables for $60 a pop.

Probably not: http://www.usa.denon.com/productdetails/3429.asp

The Amazon reviews for that cable are wonderful:

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B0...

A small sampling: (there are many, many more)

    Transmission of music data at rates faster than the
    speed of light seemed convenient, until I realized I
    was hearing the music before I actually wanted to
    play it. Apparently Denon forgot how accustomed most
    of us are to unidirectional time and the general laws
    of physics. 


    I can't recommend this cable enough. I bought a set of 
    four for my home cinema setup, and I haven't regretted
    it at all. [...] When I sit down and listen to the 
    transcendent music they produce, I can feel my pain 
    just drift away. Sometimes I even play a CD, but that's
    not really necessary.

My personal favorites revolve around Tuscan Whole Milk[1] and Uranium Ore / Yellow Cake[2]. Especially the top-rated milk review, and how often the uranium ore shows up when you're searching for yellow cake mix :)

[1]: http://www.amazon.com/Tuscan-Whole-Milk-Gallon-128/product-r... [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Uranium-Ore/product-reviews/B000796XXM...

Tuscan whole milk has not been sold for years. Some of the reviews are proof exercising your creative muscles is a win.

The 'Tags Customers Associate with This Product' are also great:

  snake oil(775)
  ripoff(697)
  waste of money(671)
  throwing your money away(613)
  unconscionable(529)
  stupid(502)
  pure garbage(440)
  immoral(433)
  cheat(404)

I think you owe me an hour or so :)

Still can't decide if the ad is for real, but I do recall somewhere in the late 80's an ad for speakers 'designed for CD music only'.

Don't waste my time with that bargain basement junk. If you want professional results, you have to start as you mean to go on.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech7/powerflux.html

I highly recommend browsing this site to get an understanding of what quality really means. I have met several people who 'get it' and have installed quality products like this: they have all been very happy with the results. *

* which appear to involve competitive shopping as a proxy for income

I think you guys are just jealous you can't afford any!

I thought my link was bad enough. wow

Maybe not. You'd think they would have struggled to overprice HDMI cables.

Here in the UK it already costs £5-10 for a 1.5m cable in our high street stores. Obviously I wouldn't get one from there, but many people do.

A typical example; http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/belkin-gigabit-ethernet-cable-...

I don't get how they can get 10Gbps down cat5e over 100m when 10GBase-T requires cat6a to do that.

Getting away from HDMI will be nice if for no other reason than not having to buy hideously overpriced switch boxes. Also, the HDCP fiasco will come to an end. I'm sure that last bit will be replaced with something equally absurd.

I believe it also uses HDCP.

Lovely. First "reinvent" 3D, used by nVidia and other for years. Then "reinvent" basic ethernet. Just lovely. I guess they are learning the game from Apple. After all, they managed to "reinvent" 8-bit gaming. When Microsoft reinvents Windows 3.1, you'll see how this game is played! :D Ahh. Here: http://xkcd.com/732

> Here: http://xkcd.com/732

Here: http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2010/04/comic-732-low-quality....

You might want to read what they're claiming they will do before writing it off as "reinventing" basic ethernet.

* ahem *

IT'S HUMOR.

Really? Wasn't it supposed to be funny, then? ;)

My local computer shop sells passive DVI over CAT5 adapters that claim to work up to 50 feet. Seeing this really drove home how overpriced digital video cables really are.

http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Are you implying the article is just hype? I don't really see the relation.

"Currently, the specification only allows for a 100Mb/sec Ethernet connection, but the alliance claims HDBaseT will be scalable up to 1Gb/sec in the future. Similarly, HDBaseT can currently playback video at up to 10.2Gb/sec, but it's theoretically scalable up to 20Gb/sec."

Anyone else see a two-order-of-magnitude problem with that statement? Uh .. if it can only transfer 100Mbps, where does the 10.2Gbps video come from? And why does a predicted 10x increase in the base transport speed only translate to a 2x increase in the high level delivery speed?

I believe that it means that HDBaseT will be able to carry 100Mbps Ethernet in a side channel in addition to the bulk video data

This article almost seems to suggest that it's some kind of CAT5 balun, which is a technique that's been around for many years, carrying VGA, DVI, USB, and all manner of protocols.

And running HDMI over CAT5 is not exactly brand new, either:

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2007/12/honeywell...

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