Comment by thraxil | Hacker News Reader

Comment by thraxil | Hacker News Reader

My ex had narcolepsy and had a service dog to help her. She (the service dog) did a number of things for her including detecting and alerting her to an oncoming cataplectic attack, giving her a little extra time to get somewhere safe. Her training was extensive and very expensive and she was incredibly well behaved. She was a ten pound miniature poodle though (my ex was allergic to dogs and poodles are naturally somewhat hypoallergenic (also very smart)) so she faced a lot of skepticism. Seeing what she went through on a regular basis, the fake service dog trend that's arisen since has really annoyed me.

On another note, I've been living in Europe and the UK for the last few years and one of the interesting cultural differences I've noticed is how common it is over here to just allow dogs in restaurants and pubs and on public transportation. That seems to be the default and only some places have "no dogs allowed" signs up. If the US would take a similar approach, maybe people wouldn't feel the need to fake service animal status.

> I've noticed is how common it is over here to just allow dogs in restaurants and pubs and on public transportation. That seems to be the default and only some places have "no dogs allowed" signs up. If the US would take a similar approach, maybe people wouldn't feel the need to fake service animal status.

A culture of allowing dogs in these places needs to go hand in hand with a culture of training dogs extremely well (and not taking advantage of the facilities that allow dogs, if you don't manage to train yours). Dogs in Germany are almost a different species to those in some other countries; the number of times I've heard dogs barking in the last year could very possibly be counted on one finger, despite seeing many more dogs than in other places.

I don't think this would fly in the US, where cultural attitudes tend to be less "we've all got to do our bit to make society pleasant for everyone" and more "it's a free country and this is my dog, I'll train it if I want to".

It is amazing. The only tradeoff is that German strangers tend to get upset if you try to pet their dogs or get their attention.

Why is that a trade-off?

It's fun to play with other people's dogs.

Same in France. For all the dogs around me, humans seem invisble. At least until you explicitly let the dog, at which point he look s at you as if christmas came early.

An hour ago I was walking back home from a restaurant and a dog looked at me, well until I realized that there was a bird or something behind me. They are indeed an alien breed once here.

As someone who is allergic to dogs, I appreciate that they're not permitted in many places in the US (especially restaurants). Actual service animals, as you point out, are incredibly well behaved, but I've definitely been subject to a fake service animal jumping at my lap while seated at a restaurant. Not my favorite thing in the world.

If people would actually train their dogs not to be disruptive, I'd mind less. But in my experience, most dogs are rowdy, annoying, and don't keep to themselves even after being instructed to do so by their owners.

I live in Edinburgh - practically every bar here allows dogs. To give an anecdote against your anecdote, I can't think of one occasion where a dog in a bar was behaving any way less than perfect. Most of them curl up under the table, and come out when someone walks by and rubs them.

I could make the same point about children, FWIW. Most children are rowdy annoying and don't keep to themselves even after being instructed to do so by their owners. Should children be banned from all restaurants?

> I live in Edinburgh - practically every bar here allows dogs. To give an anecdote against your anecdote, I can't think of one occasion where a dog in a bar was behaving any way less than perfect. Most of them curl up under the table, and come out when someone walks by and rubs them.

I also live in Edinburgh, and my experience is the same as maccard's.

They are banned from some: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/03/31/thank...

There are more than 1 million restaurants in the United States and the majority of them welcome families with children.

So much this. Kids won't appreciate the wine pairing. Reservations increased. I'd love more options for 21 dining, and I'm obviously not alone in this. I really don't understand the outage at establishments which choose to enforce these types of rules when there are so many other places to go.

Sure, and there are plenty of places where they are welcome. I don't expect to go eat in a Michelin star restaurant and be seated next to a family of four having an evening out. Equally, if I go to a bar on a Saturday night, I don't expect to be seated next to a dog that doesn't want to be there.

There's room for both, but my tongue in cheek point was supposed to be that dogs tend to be better behaved in bars/restaurants (in my anecdotal experience)

> Should children be banned from all restaurants?

If they are rowdy, and it is not a place designed for children; Yes.

>"I could make the same point about children, FWIW. Most children are rowdy annoying and don't keep to themselves even after being instructed to do so by their owners. Should children be banned from all restaurants?"

If children are misbehaving a parent can speak to them sternly and discipline them in a language they are able understand. And often times a parent will take a child outside until they calm down.

Have you ever watched the futility and absurdity of a dog owner tell a dog to stop barking?

Wait - we're talking about dogs barking in restaurants? If this happens (I have literally never seen it) it certainly happens less often than babies crying.

I've seen people successfully halt their dog from barking outside (by issuing commands, or a tap on the nose) and I have watched (with deepest sympathy - I don't begrudge it at all, some day it'll be me) the futility of some parents trying to calm a screaming kid.

If someone doesn't like dogs in restaurants on the basis of hygeine or allergies then I understand, but noise would be a really weird reason.

>"Wait - we're talking about dogs barking in restaurants? If this happens (I have literally never seen it) it certainly happens less often than babies crying."

Yes for example, almost anywhere where there is al fresco seating in New York City will have dogs owners who bring their dogs along and invariably one of those dogs will start barking as there's shortage of stimulus. It is not at all uncommon.

see:

https://www.bringfido.com/restaurant/city/new_york_ny_us/

In both cases (dogs and children), it relies on the grown up giving a shit (or at the very least being aware of their surroundings and context), _and_ having the skills to deal with the dog/child. The latter point requires a lot of ground work (training) to have been established over the years. Yes, it is possible to tell a dog to stop barking, sometimes it's easier than telling a child to stop yelling.I speak as both a parent and dog owner.

I can unequivocally state, with no hesitation at all, that a dog owner can and should be able to tell their dog to be quiet in less than 1 second.

If you can't, you shouldn't be a dog owner.

Children have much more personality. I am of the belief that this should be the case with kids too with proper parenting, but I've seen what I think is good parents with misbehaving kids and vice versa, and I'm not a parent (yet), so there I'm less sure.

I've definitely witnessed the futility in arguing with tiny humans, but never with dogs. Dogs are happily subservient.

> Children have much more personality. I am of the belief that this should be the case with kids too with proper parenting,

Agreed, but the key word here is "eventually." Humans are more complex and seem to require more reinforcement learning in some behaviors.

Sometimes there's just no quick calming down a three-year-old despite best efforts.

> Should children be banned from all restaurants?

Children are obviously different, because they're a necessary part of a functioning society. Banning parents from all places not explicitly designed for children seems cruel and, in more practical terms, will further reduce the number of people willing to shoulder the burdens of parenthood.

I'm also convinced that children derive great benefits from spending time in the company of adults other than their parents. To quote one of the Greeks: "It takes a village to raise a child".

Yes, you can make an argument for human self-extinction. But that's a separate debate.

> people willing to shoulder the burdens of parenthood

Have you seen idiocracy?

> an argument for human self-extinction

I don't follow this logic. Are you saying that by excluding children from restaurants we would increase the risk of human extinction?

So crate the kids and train dogs better. Got it!

Yes, as well as movie theaters.

I wonder if your experience is fueled by a similar disparity as a sibling poster -- that dogs in the UK tend to get much more exercise than those in California, so they tend to be calmer.

> Should children be banned from all restaurants?

I wouldn't have a problem with that. Kidding aside, as much as some people would like to suggest otherwise, dogs are not people. Children are, and IMO that gives them more of a leg to stand on when bringing them places where dogs might not be allowed, even if dogs are likely to be more trainable than children (even if, in my experience, most dog owners I see have done an abysmal job at training their dogs).

This is entirely anecdotal, but in my experience Californian dog owners don't exercise their dogs as much as British dog owners would, resulting in generally rowdier dogs. Your experience of "most dogs are rowdy, annoying, and don't keep to themselves" is something I've encountered more on the West Coast than I do at home in the UK so maybe that's a contributing factor.

This can be a side effect of not being able to take the dogs on walks to destinations. If my workplace was not dog friendly, my dog would get much less "free" walking due to not walking to/from the train.

I would need to walk the dog more, which for a lot of people isn't going to happen (pick your reason).

In restaurants I have three major causes of anoyence that decrease or even ruin the enjoyment of the meal, in order:

1: Smokers who don't consider people down wind.

2: Very loud and intoxicated groups, which occasionally are also behaving hostile/violent.

3: Parents who seems to think that children that cry for extended amount of time is something to ignore and simply wait out inside the restaurant.

But I have never had a animal jumping at my lap while seated. It not something I would find ruining the meal unless the owner could not control the animal, it would be hostile, or the owner would ignore the problem. Is that common, and where on the scale of the other annoyances would you place it?

The problem with dogs in restaurants is the shedding fur.

It creates a lot of extra work to clean up and has a decent chance of ending up in the food.

> But I have never had a animal jumping at my lap while seated.

Lucky you. I have. And not an isolated incident, either.

> It not something I would find ruining the meal unless the owner could not control the animal, it would be hostile, or the owner would ignore the problem. Is that common, and where on the scale of the other annoyances would you place it?

I wouldn't mind quite as much if I weren't allergic to dogs (though I would still find it unacceptable). If I'm enjoying a meal, the last thing I want is for my nose to get all stuffed up so I'm unable to taste it properly. I would probably place this between your #2 & #3.

I'm in my forties. I've been all around the country and have traveled internationally plenty. I have never been in a restaurant and had any animal jump on my lap, invited or not, service animal or not.

And I've ate at plenty of dog friendly cafes.

Your experience is unique and frankly strange. I've never heard a similar anecdote. As a person who has had canine companions for the bulk of my life I would never allow such a thing to happen in my own home let alone at a restaurant.

> Your experience is unique and frankly strange.

It not happening to you in no way makes it unique or strange. I'm in my mid 30s and have likewise been all around the country and have traveled internationally plenty.

I see everything from well-behaved dogs sitting there doing nothing, to annoying dogs wandering around, stretching to the end of their too-long leash, rubbing against people's legs and going under tables, to actually jumping at (not necessarily on) people's laps. Don't get me wrong, the majority of dogs I see in public places are reasonably well-behaved. But there are enough that aren't where IMO it becomes a big problem.

Perhaps SF's dog owners just suck more than in most other places. I would definitely believe that. Most of the dog owners I know have given their dogs minimal to no useful training and have little control over them aside from what they get just by having them on a leash. Everyone here is "busy" all the time and I wouldn't be surprised that on average they walk their dogs less than people in other places. Add that to small apartment sizes, and you end up with restless dogs that are unable to expend the energy they need to.

And maybe that's it -- I can't remember an instance where this has happened to me outside the bay area. I assumed that was because, since I live here, I have orders of magnitude more experience with restaurants here, but maybe there's more to it than just that.

I spend a lot of time in the city and I've never had a dog put his paws on me - not even in the Presidio sitting on the ground with food or a ball - and I'm very dog friendly. I know things are different in different parts of the city, but forty some years of being dog friendly and spending a lot of time in dog friendly cafes and parks and I've had nothing near to your experience. Do you walk around with bacon in your pockets? Sounds to me like an exaggeration.

Just for a counter viewpoint, I have lived in Asia for most of my life and the US in the last couple of years. I greatly appreciate the fact that dogs and pets are not allowed by default in certain places in the US. Regardless of how smart you think a dog is, most of them are barely, if ever, trained.

Is dog training not mandatory in the US?

Almost nothing is mandatory in the US. ;)

Dog training is certainly not mandatory (at least in any place in the US I've lived).

Indeed. Which is a fair ideal.

Legally mandated contracts aren't necessary, as long as social contracts are honored. Unfortunately the "complete freedom" usually amounts to complete freedom of personal responsibility.

> Unfortunately the "complete freedom" usually amounts to complete freedom of personal responsibility.

Usually is far too strong an estimate there, IME.

What you are observing I agree is a problem, but a problem caused by a relatively small minority of selfish (or oblivious) assholes.

You are of course right, it's an exaggeration I shouldn't make, but it is something I've increasingly noted.

It sounds like you have a cultural prejudice towards dogs.

> If the US would take a similar approach, maybe people wouldn't feel the need to fake service animal status.

We don't all like having animals in every public place. They are still animals.

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