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Comment by bdamm | Hacker News Reader

This is awesome. However, a word of warning; you're perfectly set up now for a massive and life shattering crash. My free advice; considering visiting a 12-step meeting. It's likely that you're going to need that support later, and the sooner you get it, the shorter the next problem is going to be.

Your healing has only just begun. Don't stop the work now just because things are going well.

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I disagree that 12-step programs are the best or only way to establish an emotional support network. They are a fine interim solution, but the end goal should be to establish genuine and diverse friendships that are not based upon that which you see as a shared weakness.

They may do some good things, but I don't think they have the evidence to back up all their claims and practices, and they are fundamentally religious in nature.

If you have a story of what's worked for you please share it.

But that would also be anecdotal, not evidence. As our testers keep telling our developers, "it works on my machine" is not an acceptable investigation into the problem.

Also, that presumes that what I am doing is actually working, which is a matter that could easily be debated.

If I were to personalize a 12-step into something workable for me:

  1. Admit that your enemy is yourself--the problems you can solve come from you.
  2. Realize that no one other than you can save you from yourself.
  4. Analyze those parts of yourself that war against each other.  Reconcile them.
  8. Explicitly list the undesirable side effects of your behavior.
  9. Apologize to others where necessary.  Forgive yourself.  Pledge to do better.
  10. Think about consequences before acting.  Be one unified self in thought and action.

From my perspective, several of the 12 steps involve intentionally fragmenting one's personality even further beyond those that must already exist in order to perform self-destructive acts. The "God" character is you, pretending to be someone that cares about you, perhaps with a parental figure pasted over it as a facade. Other people are then able to coach you and give direction on how to play that character, which may not necessarily benefit you.

My problem with this ultimately lies in the fact that I have a personality fragment that delights in positing conspiracy theories and unraveling deceptions, who just immediately pokes holes in all attempts at self-deception, even when it is for the purpose of self-improvement. Since religious self-deception is an integral and indivisible part of every 12-step, that rules out 5 of the steps altogether, and there's no particular reason to proselytize half of something, so that rules out the 12th, too.

What I try to do is 'take what works and leave the rest'.

My only gripe with AA so far is that it is 80% white men where I live. I hope other places have more diversity, fewer people there trying to take advantage of vulnerable women, and fewer people there for court-ordered probation moreso than actually wanting to make lasting changes.

"God" in 12-step groups is not much more than simply the idea that you are not God, and something out there might be able to help you. Beyond that, "God" can be the tree outside, the earth, Christian/Jewish/Muslim God, oceans, whatever.

For me it is not self deception. I did not create the world, and it will not cease to exist when I die.

At one time, I lost the plot. On my way back, and as an essential part of my recovery, I lost the ability to believe the lies I told myself to temporarily feel better about the crappy situation I was in.

If your god is not an actual flesh-and-blood person, it is you projecting yourself onto an inanimate object or intangible idea. I am not certain how it helps to do that sort of ventriloquism act, but apparently it does for some people. If you are that sort of person, a 12-step program might work for you. But I don't think it has ever been proven to work better than any other type of addiction recovery program, and the few studies that have been done generally support that hypothesis.

I am not a psychologist, but I don't think it is healthy to form intentional communities around a single commonality that is regarded by the group to be a critical and unrepairable flaw, and cement them together with quasi-religious traditions and proselytizing. But everyone is free to address their own problems in whatever manner they see fit. Veterans of 12-step programs will be certain to tell you that it worked for them, because that is the 12th step. They will not tell you that it is not based on evidence, only that it worked for the people that it worked for. It doesn't really matter, if you can make some new friends there.

You can deceive yourself into believing that your self-deception is not self-deception. You can also beat yourself at chess. What is the point?

The point is to effect a separation from self-harming habits that are far more dangerous to your general well-being than believing that "inanimate objects or intangible ideas" may be interconnected in ways our small perspective on the world is unable to perceive.

I've been going to a 12-step meeting and working the steps. Also going to a meditation group. My sponsor is an engineer too, so we can connect on multiple levels.

thanks for looking out, I know it's coming from a good place

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