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Comment by amai | Hacker News Reader

You know about the dangers of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking ?

I don't think they've found any risks for outdoor exposure. The amount of exposure you get in a smoking bar is far more than what you get outside.

Also there is some weirdness in the research where it's hard to find a dose response curve, and you see larger effects on cardiovascular system than lungs. I think there might be some confounds, like if you are married to a smoker or work at smoking establishment you're more likely to be poor, and be unhealthy in other ways besides smoke exposure.

I think it was Sir Richard Doll (the scientist that first proved the link between tobacco smoking and cancer), that, after a lifetime of research, claimed being around smokers didn't concern him in the slightest. Spending significant amounts of time in confined, smoke-filled spaces might be a different story though.

Obviously I wouldn't stand downwind (there's almost always a little breeze outside). Also my smoker coworkers were considerate in that they wouldn't blow their smoke in people's faces. So that wasn't an issue.

It's indicative of the hysteria around secondhand smoke that someone on HN could seriously think that occasionally standing near people smoking outside is a serious health risk.

Please read about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking#Evidence .

>Twenty rats in each exposure group were exposed to the smoke seven hours a day for 21 days. The method of exposure was ‘‘head only’’, meaning that the rats were placed head first in snug fitting plastic tubes with a screened head portion that projected into a duct through which the smoky air flowed.

Try the same with car exhaust and see how it goes

I take it seriously enough that I hold my breath while walking past someone smoking.

That's honestly ridiculous. I'd understand if you just don't like the smell, but there's no real health risk involved in walking past someone smoking

I agree. It is ridiculous. But it's also ridiculous for someone to polute the air in a public space (it's different if they are off somewhere I can easily avoid by walking a different way). And yes, I also do not like the smell, but it's both. I also have minor breathing problems that I don't want aggravated.

I mean, this demonstrates my point.

Secondhand smoke (SHS) has the same harmful chemicals that smokers inhale. There’s no safe level of exposure for secondhand smoke (SHS). - American Cancer Society

"Secondhand smoke harms children and adults, and the only way to fully protect nonsmokers is to eliminate smoking in all homes, worksites, and public places" - Center for Disease Control

"At least 69 of the toxic chemicals in secondhand tobacco smoke cause cancer" - National Cancer Institute

A friend of mine said that when they were young they went to a museum and saw two lungs: one of a daily smoker, and one of someone who simply lived in a dense city with poor air quality. The lungs looked almost the same shade of gray. Of course, the smoker's lungs were worse, but air pollution from the bus is not exactly good for you.

It's not just that there are so many other risks present in cities -- e.g. it's probably more dangerous just to be walking there in the first place than it is to pass a smoker -- it's that, like, how potent do you imagine cigarette smoke to be that just passing near some every once in a while is going to significantly harm you?

I can't even begin to imagine what kind of model of the world you'd have to be working with to believe that, which is why I deliberately chose the word hysteria to describe it.

I guess I just equate smoking with poison. I think it's equally illogical to be purposefully ingesting poison on a daily basis. For myself, I prefer zero purposeful ingestion, even if I am ignorant of the effects.

We [myself former] are not simply poisoning ourselves for fun. There are a multitude of benefits afforded by nicotine in the short term, including improved focus, reduced anxiety, and of course the habit of a smoke break is great for clearing the mind.

Your problem is that you, as you say, equate smoking with poison. That's hyperbolic. One could say the same about sugar, but it would sound just as ridiculous.

It's almost as if smokers are dehumanized these days, and non smokers deliberately ignore reasons to smoke.

There has also been ample evidence of neuroprotective effects of nicotine[0][1] for decades now. I dont mean to suggest that you go out and start a pack a day habit, but my point is that walking past a smoker won't give you cancer.

[0]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19714494

[1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11772120

Those short-term benefits are far outweighed by the long-term negative effects, and there are far better ways to enjoy those short-term benefits (there may be a few specific scenarios I am ignorant of, diseases, etc, but I'm sure those are few and far between)

The real problem is people selling short-term benefits over long-term consequences.

"The real problem is people selling short-term benefits over long-term consequences."

No, that's not it at all. If that's all it was, then I'd have no qualms or quibbles; that's a choice for each individual to make. The power of the secondhand-smoke argument is that it catapults this debate out of the realm of individual choice. Now those nefarious smokers are harming you, too! They must be stopped!

This is the key you need to unlock smoking bans. You can't get any of that done without the overreach on secondhand smoke.

Oh I see. You believe that second-hand smoke does no harm. I defer to the American Cancer Society, the Center for Disease Control, and the National Cancer Institute.

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/tobacco-and-canc...

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco...

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/t...

I don't know what you think the studies on this say, but I assure you none of them support the position that it's dangerous to walk past someone smoking.

Again, it's only because there's a deliberate hysteria around this issue that my claim seems even remotely controversial to you.

And, yes, even the CDC is capable of hyperbole:

Secondhand smoke harms children and adults, and the only way to fully protect nonsmokers is to eliminate smoking in all homes, worksites, and public places.1,2,3

Yes, I mean, that's trivially true. Eliminating all smoke in the world is the only way to ever truly be safe <cue scary music>.

> Secondhand smoke harms children and adults, and the only way to fully protect nonsmokers is to eliminate smoking in all homes, worksites, and public places.1,2,3

>Yes, I mean, that's trivially true. Eliminating all smoke in the world is the only way to ever truly be safe <cue scary music>.

Sure, but when I'm by a campfire and the smoke gets in my face, I move. Don't you?

I don't want it affecting me, whatever the effects may be.

It's not only about health risks. Standing near smokers is disgusting and soils your clothes with their smell, specially when they are smoking.

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