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Comment by chris_wot | Hacker News Reader

How does this work exactly, I didn't entirely follow by just reading the article. Does Amazon verify the ID with the government directly?

If so, then that basically means the government knows who you are shopping with. That's all sorts of overreach. Unless it's for tax purposes, I don't see why the government needs to know who you choose to buy from. What if someone buys from a controversial source - does the Indian government really need to know what sort of porn companies someone purchases from?

And if it's just an ID, then how does Amazon know that someone hasn't stolen the ID and just provided it for identity fraud? Or do you also have to provide some sort of biometric verifier also? Either case sounds pretty fraught with difficulty.

In Australia, everyone has a Tax File Number. It's not that well known, but retailers who ask for the TFN are breaking the law and will be fined a huge amount of money.

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I _think_ what's going on is that they asked for the Aadhaar card as a "Photo ID". If you read the chat, the AMZN link that the rep points to asks for a place to upload a Photo ID. The Aadhaar card does function as a Photo ID as it has your picture and name on it. So it's similar to being asked to upload your Driver's License as a photo ID. It's possible that Amazon India has a policy of asking for Photo ID for investigating any complaints about big purchases because of fraud (I could just claim that I didn't get the phone). Since this user bought a Samsung Galaxy J7 Prime, it was probably greater than the threshold where the photo ID requirement was mandated. It's also possible that this user account was flagged as a suspicious user.

Either way, the whole biometric scare in this case is nonsense.

That's an interesting observation, and it's possible to see how different cultures deal with anonymity. For a Brazilian, giving out a personal ID for (almost) anybody is a matter of fact.

In Brazil we have a tax number (CPF) and one or more personal ID numbers (state police RG, federal drivers license, passport, etc) which are roughly on the same level regarding personal identification, but which don't matter for tax purposes.

It is mandatory to give your CPF to merchants when they have to invoice the customer, as you (or your CPF) will be one of the parties in that commercial contract. In the case the customer is present in a retail transaction, the retailer can just give you an anonymous receipt. In some states, the customer can give their CPF in order to get some tax refunds.

In either case, an electronic copy of the invoice is sent to the government to account for the taxes, and the invoice must detail exactly what was traded between merchant and customer.

Besides all that, usually you have to identify yourself with both CPF and a personal ID, perhaps leaving a photocopy of both documents, as the CPF number just says you are a taxable personal entity, but it doesn't positively identify a person, as the tax authorities doesn't store any biometric information. The polices (state and federal), on the other hand, have photos, signatures and fingerprints.

    > retailers who ask for the TFN

Why would a retailer ask for it? I don't think I've been asked for my NI number (the UK equivalent) by anyone except people dealing with my tax (including banks) or by the government directly when registering for services.

They don't as a rule, but I believe there have been a few who have tried.

... to what end? Credit reports can presumably be looked up without them if they're not asked for regularly.

Its I believe highly illegal when I worked for BT in the UK misuse of NI numbers was a very serious gross misconduct offence - we go read the riot act over this it was almost as bad as corruptly looking up data on individuals info - say the queens private number ;-)

Amazon can verify this identity using a Govt provided API. The verification can be performed with or without holder's knowledge.

There are multiple issues with this identity. The Govt is using private players to enrol the residents into this platform. There were multiple instances where people paid bribe to get multiple IDs in different name. And, the enrolment agencies with MoU with Govt can keep the data of residents, including biometric data. There is even a search facility available with around 1500 users who can search any details about 1bn+ people.

Above all, if your ID is misused, you can't approach courts. You can lodge a complaint with Govt call center. Only Govt, after investigation, can approach a court on your behalf. Other option is to approach a constitutional court directly, which is expensive.

The Supreme Court is supposed to take up this issue sometime in the near future.

TFNs are weird. You legally don't have to give them to anybody. I have a TFN declaration form sitting in front of me here at work, and it says specifically "It's not an offence not to quote your TFN".

You can just not give your employer your TFN, and they'll withhold your tax at the maximum rate, and you can get a bunch of money back after your tax return. Your TFN is just a way for the ATO to figure out how much tax to withhold so your tax return is more correct.

Anyway, Australia and New Zealand are interesting, in that there is no single number that maps to a person. You can use your drivers licence number, or your passport number, or your TFN/IRD number, depending on the situation.

When they introduced photo drivers licences in New Zealand, there was concern in them turning into a de facto national ID card.

There are however, legal restrictions around who can collect a TFN and what it can be used for.

Section 8 of the Privacy (Tax File Number) Rule 2015:

TFN recipients must only request or collect TFN information from individuals and other TFN recipients for a purpose authorised by taxation law, personal assistance law or superannuation law.

(2) When requesting an individual’s TFN, TFN recipients must take reasonable steps to ensure that:

(a) individuals are informed:

(i) of the taxation law, personal assistance law or superannuation law which authorises the TFN recipient to request or collect the TFN (ii) of the purpose(s) for which the TFN is requested or collected (iii) that declining to quote a TFN is not an offence (iv) about the consequences of declining to quote a TFN

(b) the manner of collection does not unreasonably intrude on the individual’s affairs, and

(c) the TFN recipient only requests or collects information that is necessary and relevant to the purpose of collection under applicable taxation law, personal assistance law or superannuation law.

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