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Comment by krapp | Hacker News Reader

It's ok, nationalism makes some people emotional, take a deep breath and calm down.

I don't actually disagree with you. The use of lethal force was the mistake here, but the presence of force was justifiable. The problem is how easily one seems to lead to the other. What should have happened is the police realizing their force was unnecessary and then standing down.

Also, if someone were to call in, say, a terrorist threat or a bomb threat in Britain, someone would show up with guns there as well. You know, because Britain also has their equivalent to SWAT teams. With guns. That they shoot people with.

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The British 'firearms units' aren't trained to bring aggression to a situation. They're trained to properly identify targets before shooting, knowing that they will be required to justify their actions in court. Completely different to SWAT team training in the US. Here in the UK, an officer shooting someone dead as soon as they answer the door won't fly in court. The number of police killings in the UK vs US is relatively less controversial by a significant margin.

Just for the sake of accuracy, the victim here wasn't 'shot dead as soon as they answered the door[0].'

Not that 'shot dead from across the street as soon as his hand twitched' is justifiable.

[0]http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192111974.html

The article you reference currently says just this:

“A male came to the front door,” Livingston said. “As he came to the front door, one of our officers discharged his weapon.”

Perhaps it previously had some other claim about the circumstances, but if so it has since been revised to remove it.

Watch the body camera video in the same article.

American SWAT teams are also trained to "properly identify targets before shooting", and officers are held accountable through a variety of systems (even though we may not always agree with the conclusion).

We're not going to get anywhere with such silly caricatures, and they are dangerous in themselves -- just ask Dallas. May be something to keep in mind while we're on the subject of indirect culpability.

UK armed police shot and killed and unarmed, innocent man in 2005. Nobody was charged or had to justify their actions in court. It happens far less often but when the situation does arise, it's not obvious British police are better trained and react better. What does work is the policy of restricting both firearms ownership and the number of armed police.

If you're referring to the Jean Charles de Menezes shooting, then there were weeks of hearings where the police and officers involved had to justify their actions.

Perhaps you misread the claim in the comment.

"They're trained to properly identify targets before shooting, knowing that they will be required to justify their actions in court."

Obviously, they neither properly identified their target nor did they have to justify their actions in court.

There was a very long coroners inquiry on this shooting. In this coroners court the shooters had to explain in details. Yes, they got the identifications wrong, but this was not after some random telephone call, but after four suicide bomber had filled dozens of people.

I think the balance is about right and nothing like the USA. More importantly the jury of peers, in the coroners court, thought the Met Police failed on Health and Safety grounds but not the individual shooters.

There are long inquiries and court cases in the US as well. Jury of peers, the whole lot. I'm not sure how the 'balance is about right and nothing like the USA'. When called upon in a moment of crisis, these people got onto a train and shot an innocent person in the the head half a dozen times, from close range.

The big difference is, there are fewer opportunities for armed police to screw this up. There are far fewer of them (heavily armed police are the exception, rather than the default) and they are not nearly needed as often (the citizenry is not as heavily armed). The policy that largely prevents the mistakes is what really helps, rather than having better armed police or better post-cockup inquiries (both of which, to me, seem fairly debatable).

The fact that you didn't even need to know his name and most in Britain know who you're talking about says all you need to know about the scrutiny of it. Every time a British police officer discharges their weapon it is automatically investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

No, that doesn't, in itself, say anything about the degree or quality of scrutiny. It just says the events are so rare, they're memorable. Officers discharging their weapons are reviewed in the US as well.

> nationalism makes some people emotional,

I'm not sure where you thought I was being nationalistic. I stated my nationality to make the context clearer. My country is an odious cesspool in many ways. We're just lucky not to have a fully militarised police force.

  The *use* of lethal force was the mistake here, but the *presence* of force was justifiable.

That is very well put.

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