Extreme event attribution is an expanding subfield of climate science
scientificamerican.com
scientificamerican.com
My question is this; How qualified and experienced do I need to be in order to be able to legitimately and completely distrust the climate change 'experts'? Because I feel like I've earned that right.
Please name and shame. I've also done work in the field, and this kind of behavior was never acceptable - and should not be.
If you let the bad actors hide in obscurity, they will continue to practice bad science.
I would like to know hat models showed runaway warming and were publishing because I don't remember anything like that.
Sorry, you have claimed that the scientists wanted the 'right' predictions, that was runaway warming.
I repeat, can you link to any scientists saying in 2006-2007 that the most probable outcome was runaway warming?
I had access to a few models and it was trivial to cause runaway warming. It was naturally something everyone tried when they were handed the keys to the servers. I recall causing the oceans boil within a few centuries.
There is fundamental data that does not depend on climate models that tells us we're in danger. Atmosphere composition in one of them. Ocean ph is another.
If you have specific criticisms against how climate models are being run, then the place for that debate is within the scientific community, with scientific arguments. Apparently you have decided that is not for you, though.
So you had a long and glorious career spanning more than 18 months, that makes you feel entitled to criticize those who studied the field for decades and are actually making a living therein.
It's not so easy to be sure about the warning produced by the CO2 because a very big part is the "Climate Sensibility". And there is no straightforward way to calculate the climate sensibility, you must use climate models. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_sensitivity#Radiative_...
> CO2 climate sensitivity has a component directly due to radiative forcing by CO2, and a further contribution arising from climate feedbacks, both positive and negative. "Without any feedbacks, a doubling of CO2 (which amounts to a forcing of 3.7 W/m2) would result in 1 °C global warming, which is easy to calculate and is undisputed. The remaining uncertainty is due entirely to feedbacks in the system, namely, the water vapor feedback, the ice-albedo feedback, the cloud feedback, and the lapse rate feedback";[14] addition of these feedbacks leads to a value of the sensitivity to CO2 doubling of approximately 3 °C ± 1.5 °C, which corresponds to a value of λ of 0.8 K/(W/m2).
We're going to get warmer, to find out how much warmer, you need more complex models.
I believe the primary difference between the "consensus crowd" and the "skeptic crowd" is that the consensus crowd is confident in the predictive value of models that have a net positive feedback sensitivity to temperature increase while the skeptics argue that we don't actually know what the feedback mechanisms well enough to be confident in the models and in fact basic physical principles argue for a negative net feedback to temperature increases (to avoid runaway warming).
As for possibile negative feedback loops, increased CO2 might increase clouds, which increases the earth's albedo resulting in less energy input from the sun, which reduces temperature.
What the heck?
There is another level of debate, less foundational, regarding the quality of our temperature observations and the amount of warming (not catastrophic warming) that is a result of natural variation, human activity, measurement errors, data adjustments and the like.
Observational warming has in general been less than that predicted by the models suggesting that the extrapolation into the future by the models may not be accurate.
What catastrophic warming? Or better, define catastrophic warming
And by the way, 90% of skeptics still say that there is no warming.
> Observational warming has in general been less than that predicted by the models suggesting that the extrapolation into the future by the models may not be accurate.
Source for that?
Anthropomorphic global warming theory is roughly two connected claims. 1) rising CO2 levels caused by human activity results in a rise in the average global temperature and 2) the climate system has a feedback mechanism (sensitivity) that magnifies this CO2 induced warming.
Basic physics can be used to determine the warming caused by increased CO2. There are no serious skeptics in regards to these physical properties of CO2. My understanding is that the IPCC reports have consistently reported this warming as 1-1.5 degrees for every doubling of CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.
But that temperature rise isn't enough to create the catastrophic side effects that you see reported. That rise has to be magnified by the climate system through a variety of feedback mechanisms. This magnification/sensitivity can't be measured. It is the output of the climate models not one of the input parameters. Credible skeptics argue that a positive sensitivity is incorrect and that the climate system (as with most natural systems) has a negative sensitivity.
Here is what seems to be a reasonable review of predictions vs observations using a variety of methodologies most showing observations trending towards the lower half of the predicted ranges of the models (as opposed to trending toward the center line of the predictions): https://judithcurry.com/2017/09/26/are-climate-models-overst...
Well, distrust of experts is the fuel that powers the anti-vaccination trend, the fluoride scare, etc. There are large hordes of soccer moms out there who feel the same as you do - that they are more qualified than the experts to make decisions on vaccination schedules.
But let's get back on the main topic. The answer to your question, of course, is - you are entitled to distrust experts when you are an expert yourself. Not a semi-dilettante, not someone who has dabbled in related fields, not someone who made coffee for the actual experts.
Seems the actual science is the direct opposite of the headline once you read through the article.
I don't see how the article contradicts the title at all. Certainly not 'direct opposite' as it even calls out specific scientists and specific papers that are in fact doing exactly what the headline says. It's not like the article headline says "All scientists now agree: Harvey caused by climate change" or something like that. The headline is very clear and very specific. It is fine.
There are two parts to that title:
1) "can now" implies that something significant in scientific understanding has changed 2) "blame individual natural disasters on climate change" is clear
#2 is flat out wrong because, see my quote above, the article makes it clear that the scientific consensus is still that individual events cannot be directly attributed to climate change.
#1 is wrong because nothing has changed.
Scientists can predict that the probability of extreme events in general is rising due to climate change but that is not proof that any specific event is attributable to climate change. That is not new. Nothing has changed in the consensus scientific position.
Scientific consensus doesn't make something true. Climate change is true because we measure it, not because most scientists say it is. This is an active area of research, a brand-new area in fact, and making claims like "Storms cannot be blamed on climate change" is absolutely incorrect. We're still finding out the answers to those kinds of questions, and just now it's become potentially feasible to actually do it (blame climate change for a specific event).
> #1 is wrong because nothing has changed.
What? Of course things have changed. That's what this whole article is about. The methods are maturing and data access is growing - the nature of publishing a peer reviewed paper that blames all or part of an event on climate change is now an accepted practice and it wasn't before. This is change.
I still see no issue at all with the headline. It is a perfect fit for the article and is not wrong in any way.
Edit: I've been banned from HN for a while I guess, unable to comment any more. I'll respond quickly to the comment below:
> > Scientific consensus doesn't make something true
> This is the same argument the denialist use. I am not sure how it is relevant to anything.
You cut up my paragraph and removed the context from my comment in order to make me look like a climate change denier. I'm not. Why did you do that?
> > making claims like "Storms cannot be blamed on climate change" is absolutely incorrect
> Nobody made that claim.
I never said they did.
This is the same argument the denialist use. I am not sure how it is relevant to anything.
> making claims like "Storms cannot be blamed on climate change" is absolutely incorrect
Nobody made that claim.
There is an actual scientifically supportable position in between the two extremes you are proposing which is that in general the risk of extreme weather events is increasing due to climate change but no individual extreme weather event can be specifically attributed to climate change.
We ban accounts that repeatedly violate the site guidelines, so please read them and abide by them when commenting here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
Basically, both the headline and quote can easily be true at the same time.
Also, my main account, cryptoz, is now temporarily? banned from posting on HN due to me defending the correctness of this headline. I wish it had not been changed. I have lost this battle.
cryptoz is rate limited, but not for anything to do with this. We rate limit accounts when they either post too many low-quality-for-HN comments too quickly and/or have gotten into flamewars. We're happy to un-rate-limit accounts, and do so all the time, as long as we get a commitment from the user to abide by the intention of the site in the future. But it's best to email hn@ycombinator.com if you want us to do that. Same goes for any user of course.
I don't think this will accomplish what these scientists hope. People fill gaps of trust more than gaps of fact. No amount of evidence or attribution is going to address that problem.
> Two separate studies published in December both found that climate change had influenced Harvey's record-breaking rainfall (Climatewire, Dec. 14, 2017).
I don't see anywhere in the article that even remotely comes close to contradicting the headline.