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Comment by Valmar | Hacker News Reader

> Negative stimulus reaction and pain are different things.

How are they different? Pain is a negative stimulus response that allows us to know whether something is causing damage to our body.

> We know we feel pain. We can guess that organisms with similar brain architectures are feeling pain.

How does feeling pain have anything to do with a brain's architecture? It has more to do with nerves... block a nerve's functioning, and you don't feel pain. Also, pain can be psychosomatic.

> Ants keep doing their job even after fatal damage. If they feel something, it is not anything like our pain.

Have you seen ants writhe around after being crushed or dismembered? They definitely feel pain.

> So it is not obvious that our feeling of pain is universal.

Depends on your definition of pain, doesn't it?

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> How are they different? Pain is a negative stimulus response that allows us to know whether something is causing damage to our body.

The difference is between the unpleasant, subjective experience (qualia) and the electrical signals indicating physical damage.

A car has sensors that detect physical damage, yet it doesn't feel pain in the way that humans do. The question is, where on that spectrum bacteria, ants, and fish lie.

> Have you seen ants writhe around after being crushed or dismembered? They definitely feel pain.

Have you seen a car deploy its airbags and notify emergency services after a crash? And yet, they definitely don't feel pain. Visible reaction to a negative stimulus is neither a sufficient nor a necessary precondition for someone or something to feel pain.

Living beings are not mere machines, so the comparison makes little sense. All living beings have some form of consciousness, and so, are able to feel some form of discomfort, of which pain is the most extreme.

> All living beings have some form of consciousness

Event plants, bacteria, and amoebas? You sound very sure – how do you know this?

I look at the common elements that living beings have, compared to plain matter.

Animals have consciousness and can feel pain. Animal and plant bodies are both comprised of many differentiated cells. Both have DNA. Bacteria are singular cells, and have DNA...

Plants have been demonstrated to have short-term memory, recognize family and neighbouring plants, and so on. So... it is extremely likely that plants, bacteria, fungi, and perhaps even amoebas, also have consciousness, feel emotions and feel pain. Maybe not in the way we think about emotions and pain, but in whatever way they do, which is entirely mysterious to us, being animals with animal-consciousness and instincts. We cannot understand what it is like to be a plant, bacterium, fungus or amoeba... it is far too alien to our animal-mind.

You may find these articles of interest:

http://www.naturaltherapycenter.com/the-secret-life-of-plant...

https://nautil.us/issue/34/adaptation/junk-food-is-bad-for-p...

> How are they different?

Direct link from a receptor to an effector is sufficient for negative stimulus reaction. But it is not sufficient for pain. Rapid withdrawal of a limb from a hot object happens before we feel pain.

> Rapid withdrawal of a limb from a hot object happens before we feel pain.

I always feel pain in that instant. I feel the pain before I can even consciously react to it, because of the shock from it. Unless of course the nerves are shocked enough to prevent the pain from being felt immediately.

You can't, unless you are interneuron in your spinal column, but then you'd have trouble posting here.

The brain fakes the timing of things. Constantly.

Heat/burning sensations use the slowest type of nerve fiber, only moving at .5 to 2 meters per second. While the primary actors related to movement are at 100 meters per second.

> Have you seen ants writhe around after being crushed or dismembered?

Malfunctioning limbs will cause the same effect. Ant without a gaster will continue to function normally.

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