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Comment by mc32 | Hacker News Reader

The problem with our unions is that they have not modernized, often the union is more interested in the union itself than the worker. Some are known for graft ad corruption, and they also on occasion tell their membership how to vote politically.

If they want people to sympathize with them they have to modernize and address modern issues. They can't live off their 1920s laurels.

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A union, the act of unionisation is inherently political, of course they'll say vote for "x". You have different interests to your boss and your boss has different interests to you, of course you will vote and engage politically differently.

Could you explain specifically what you mean by "modernise"? Or how they are not addressing modern issues? I could point to hundreds of examples in Australia of very successful industrial action that addresses "modern" issues, so you'll really need to be more specific.

Well, you'll get US-centric answers.

The longshoremen union is a great example of a union that stops technology.

The auto workers and steel workers unions didn't help the Midwest stay afloat either.

No possible effort by a steel workers union is going to stop globalization from hollowing out US manufacturing. That's a problem that has to be tackled at a higher level.

In that particular case, I think you're right.

Old technology meant steel coming out of PA was expensive. Steel should have presented a united front (labor and employers) demanding Carter and Reagan address dumping and drive for modernization --even if that meant fewer workers in the future --but at least the industry would remain.

After US announced 30% tariffs on imported solar panels, a Chinese company said they'd build a factory in the US [1].

We should demand fair reciprocal trade. None of this WTO, promises we put up with.

[1]http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/30/news/economy/jinko-solar-us-...

The panel tariffs are a problem because it's possible the negative impact on non-manufacturing (solar installations, etc) will cancel out the benefits from the tariffs :( But yes, there are definitely things the government could have done to protect local manufacturing. I'm still not sure the steel industry could've been saved. At this point I think the real failure is that the government didn't do enough to help people trapped in dying rust belt cities. Unions can't bear the blame for that.

you think the auto worker unions killed the midwest?

The industry is still afloat despite foreign car companies eating US car company's lunch (because of poor quality on the US side, and that's not on the linepeople), and many people in those industries are getting proper paychecks.

The only difference I see in a non-unionized auto industry is even lower wages and less time off. Unions didn't cause bad car design.

I don't know about that. It's pretty old history now, but you might want to learn about what happened at NUMMI versus most other American manufacturing plants at the time (early 80's). Plenty of blame to go around, with management, union rules, and workers, but there are vivid tales of workers doing things resulted in very bad quality. [1]

Today, it seems pretty clear that police unions in some cities are a big blocker when it comes to meaningful reforms.

Which is not to say I'm anti-union, but there are some cautionary tales. It's mixed. Scorched-earth tactics (on either side) are not the answer.

[1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/561/nummi-2015

Not saying that unions are perfect, but the US auto industry problems are much deeper than unions. These unions are just navigating on a difficult situation that was not caused by workers. Viewing them as the cause for the troubles of the auto and steel industry is just stupid, plainly coming from anti-labor mindset.

Modernize:

1. Base promotions on skill, not seniority.

2. Address problem members properly -fire transgressors.

3. Allow cross-industry move (people change jobs)

4. Eliminate corruption

5. Think of workers + company (not union for the sake of the union, etc)

6. Don't politicize (cozy up to one candidate or another) fight for beliefs not political parties.

7. Don't promote luddism.

8. Don't get in the way of work (only union members from local 783 can turn that screw and we won't have one in the shop till Monday next week)

9. (almost forgot) Stem outsourcing.

You can apply every one of those to companies as well. If companies 'modernise' the need for unions will go away.

A few, but not most. I guess the presumption is we need unions otherwise the whole discussion is moot.

> Base promotions on skill, not seniority.

I have always been curious about the long term efficacy of that policy. At its face, it seems good, but I wonder if it disincentivizes expirenced people from training promising young talent.

> You have different interests to your boss and your boss has different interests to you, of course you will vote and engage politically differently.

Nope. At my employer, anyway, engineers and the managers they report to are pretty similarly compensated and pretty similarly motivated to achieve the team's goals. Somewhere between Manager II and Senior Director you start to be meaningfully distinct from the engineers, but "your boss" as a software engineer is a (sometimes, not always) slightly more senior version of you who made a lateral move to management which you may or may not be planning soon.

The problem with our corporations is that they have not modernized, often the corporation is more interested in the corporation itself than the profit. Some are known for graft and corruption, and they also on occasion tell their employees how to vote politically.

If they want people to sympathize with them they have to modernize and address modern issues. They can't live off their 1950s laurels.

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