A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're Built
jalopnik.com
jalopnik.com
Munro on the BMW i3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqiBWfsDTAA
Munro on the Tesla Model 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM
To be fair though, Tesla's manufacturing quality does indeed falling behind their targeted segment majorly. Like Munro said, even Kia makes better assembly these days (without uneven gaps etc.) But yes, have a paid contract for product promotion doesn't hurt
> Plus, the engineers told me, the cost models are proven. Some manufactures, they said, actually hand their own parts to Munro asking them to use their model to see how close they can get to the actual cost of manufacture. Munro says their numbers always come very close, and that they’ve even been accused of having insider information. Munro isn’t just there to help engineers learn about how the competition designs and assembles its cars, it’s also there to help automakers—who really should be called “auto assemblers”—figure out if they’re getting ripped off by their parts suppliers. Knowing exactly how much it costs to build a wheel bearing, for example, can act as leverage for negotiation against a supplier of that part. At the same time, suppliers also go to Munro to learn. If, for example, one of their competitors is selling a part for what seems like impossibly too little, the supplier might ask Munro to tear it down and figure out how the competitor is saving cost.
The engineers don't give a damn about a Munro PR video about a competitor, period. It's a complete non-issue for them, and the same goes for their managers who are the ones who decide to work with Munro. They want to know every detail about how all the sausage is made (or what the sausage actually is). They don't care if the car is well made or poorly made; they're focused on the how; after all, even a car with severe quality control issues can offer useful insights. Besides, every peculiar (or even dumb) design or manufacturing decision they've made was previously laid bare by companies like Munro. Think of the process as something more like peer review or a morbidity and mortality conference for doctors. It's not a public process, despite something like this video.
Basically, the people who would care if Munro upset the company by speaking favorably about Tesla are the people who have no involvement in whether their company works with Munro in the first place. If someone from Ford marketing told Ford engineering to quit working with Munro because of a video, they'd be laughed at and promptly ignored.
"I'm calling this out about your car. You got quality problems. We can help."
I can see there being a Model 3 recall over that kind of stuff. What's the point of over the air software updates if your hardware is unsafe.
https://www.nfpa.org/Training-and-Events/By-topic/Alternativ...
The battery disconnect procedures there, using the high voltage service disconnects, start with lowering the back seat or jacking up the rear of the car.
Tesla provides the location of the little access panel on the quick response sheet here:
https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders
Requiring 12 volts to pop the hood is not great but it doesn't seem to be that much of a departure either.
The car could be upside down or on a very steep hill. It all seems pretty frightening stuff. You're basically just praying you don't have a serious crash which is back to the 60s.
I don't think that emergency procedures should be matched to other electric vehicles they should be matched to existing ICE cars.
That’s not a difficult procedure: open the hood (forcefully if need be, latch is in the front), cut the wire in the place marked in bright orange and labeled accordingly - and immediately visible and accessible upon opening the hood.
In reality, I think this has almost no impact on his business other than a little bit of publicity. Well run companies on the scale of GM are going to be just as interested in the data on a competitor whether their competitor is better or worse. There is always something to be learned. Ford is going to learn different things from Hyundai and from Mercedes...but they are going to learn.
The 3 they were looking at had two points to cut the electrical system, both of which were hard to get to during an accident, and the rear doors had no mechanical backup at all. If power goes out rear passengers need to make their way to the front seats or trunk.
Maybe watch the actual video rather than imagining what the video was to say and then responding to that.
Im a fan of Tesla, I wish the best for them. They arent perfect, there is a ton of room for improvement, but it is largely cosmetic and not safety critical.
Also who in the 2018 world designs trunk doors that would take two hands to close for kids, smaller/older individuals? The non power operated trunk on my CR-V closes with a finger!
His comments about the outside door handles were at least prefaced with his own physical limitation but the state of that car is mind boggling. This is on top of the known promised features and oversight with regards to the programming of the display. I did notice on reddit there is a story of a III having cratered its engine. http://teslaweekly.com/first-model-3-motor-failure-reported-...
All in all 2017 wasn't their best year so hopefully 2018 will see a turn around but even max projections are well under 200k cars this year
Brother of my close friend literally burned to death in a Hyundai with no manual override for unlocking/opening doors. Granted he had modified the car's stereo system with custom speakers and the roadside mechanic did not do a good job with it which caused short circuit/fire. But had he been able to manually open the doors he would still be alive today. And to think Tesla is all batteries that have strong chance of starting a fire - ugh.
If car body construction tech was new you could cut Tesla some slack but given all of these issues have been fixed by pretty much all manufacturers years ago - I have no sympathy for Tesla there.
Related - a woman was stuck in her Audi Q3 in 41C (106F) heat. (Australia, 2003)
I'm not going to test it, but I imagine myself desperately bouncing the metal prongs off the inside of a window.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i5rycLJ3D8&feature=youtu.be...
Looks like near the edge is good enough.
They're not designed for that, but some can be used in a pinch. Best not to rely on them!
A gasoline car has plenty of flammable material as well.
Ah. So it's like gasoline then?
I'm not saying electric cars are safer or more dangerous in the event of a crash (because I don't know the answer to that), just that batteries can and will catch fire.
So, yes, if you puncture the lithium cells you may put yourself at risk. You're also at risk if you puncture a gasoline tank (worse if you're talking something like hydrogen).
Note: Tesla does not, AFAIK, use LiFePo4 cells. Additionally one of the big challenges is that LiFePo4 cells are less energy dense than other lithium chemistries.
A Tesla burned down after a crash in Austria last year [2]
1: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T4sDy-zdV2o
2: https://www.golem.de/news/elektroauto-tesla-model-s-brennt-a...
After a roll-over, it won't be there and you may not be able to reach the glove box. If you have a center console, I recommend keeping it there (that's where I keep mine).
If you're reading this and you don't have one in your car, buy one now. Here is a link for 2 for $10 (give the other one to your spouse/parent/kid/someone): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CQN0DDC/
http://safety.addalot.se/upload/2016/PDF/1-3%20Automotive%20...
https://perryandcoblog.com/2009/11/17/porsche-carrera-911-99...
I can tell he very much enjoys doing what he does.
What exactly did you learn?
He kept saying the i3 "life module" (agile! AGILE!) was some magical achievement. Yeah, carbon fiber is neat. They also choose the grain direction of panels for optimum efficiency.
- We've been using grain direction on wood for what, thousands of years?
- We've been made cars "strong" for century. It's called a tube frame. And it's one of the main reasons dragsters/NASCAR drivers don't die on impacts that will kill most people in consumer cars.
What's actually important these days is not how "strong" a frame is. It's how it deforms to absorb maximum energy on impact so the passengers experience the least acceleration possible. "Strong" has been solved. And crush areas have been common for decades upon decades. The only new thing here is they're using carbon fiber. And the only reason they're doing that... is 1) "marketing" and 2) weight reduction because battery cars are very heavy AND very sensitive to weight for mileage.
Automotive companies aren't on the frontline of technology. They're on the frontline of CHEAP/mass-producible technology.
Simply putting some carbon fiber on a body is not magical to us practicing mechanical engineers. But I guess it may seem like "magic" to software people, the way mechanical people see IT/software as magic.
What's actually "Cool" about this company/video is how they can tear down entire vehicles and come up with accurate cost estimates, as well as the construction order. That takes a _lot_ of work and industry experience. But the technology in those cars? It's not even remotely new.
If these kinds of problems and design issues are still present when I'm ready to buy a 3, I'd probably reconsider.
Maybe they'll tighten their tolerances as they perfect their line, but some of those design decisions seem almost beyond explanation-- the double door handles (where one option shames the user for doing what should be the normal MO), the absence of mechanical releases in the back and in the frunk, and so on.
In the 1970s my father worked at a company that supplied parts to car manufacturers, and it was a normal thing - if Company X say they want a backlit switch with the clicky feel of a Company Y Model Z, they hired a Company Y Model Z, took the switch off and measured it.
According to my father, the car industry and the car rental industry all know this is commonplace.
The amount of institutional knowledge baked into our industries is simply mind-boggling. The only reason we can get away with outsourcing manufacturing in the first place is because this knowledge is so amazingly thorough.
If you're ever around the Beijing airport, you'll notice a mushroom patch of well-known non-Chinese companies' facilities. The one constant? More security around the buildings than a military base.
I'm not one to beat the US / European nationalistic gong, but it's a fact that the Chinese government has specifically targeted foreign industries to force into tech transfer. And foreign governments generally haven't done anything meaningful about it.
The Chinese have a long view on this stuff. If you put out an engineering RFP, you can be sure that Chinese companies and government are probably the biggest web consumers of your content.
And as for who is forcing foreign companies to do this? Hilariously enough, capitalism. Multinationals can't afford to miss selling to the Chinese market, or their board / shareholder's vote them out. So they're left to strike the best deal they can get, given that the outcome is already known by both parties. (Exceptions like Google exist, but it does have an atypical stock structure)
From the Minneapolis Fed (2016), https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/economic-policy-pape... (the first authoritative source I could find):
"China’s quid pro quo policy also helps account for the unusual global investment flow. Chinese policy requires multinational firms that want access to China’s huge market to transfer partial property rights to their technology, often through R&D centers or joint ventures with Chinese firms (Holmes, McGrattan and Prescott 2015a, 2015b)."
I think it's got more to do with having decade long focus under a single leadership than have politicians floundering to get reelected every 5 years.
Because the indian government didn't demand it as a condition of entry like the chinese government did.
Have you never wondered why western companies have to engage in 50/50 ventures with chinese companies into china instead of just entering china like they do every other country?
Look up Hero Honda, Maruti Suzuki etc. What happened was that the MNCs weren't interested at all. India followed with liberalization and removal of such "license raj" in 1991. Economy has done much better since.
DJI hires high quality Chinese engineers. Their software is better than what American consumer drone companies manage to push out, and they can push the latest tech to market insanely quick, as GoPro learned the hard way when they found out DJI was a half generation ahead of them on drone tech.
DJI has great customer service, an amazing insurance plan that provides piece of mind, and bullet proof build quality.
They do have a major advantage of being in China, so they can work with suppliers much more directly. It doesn't feel like they are using the grey technology market though. A lot of the lower priced drones are obviously put together from Shenzen part bins, but DJI just feels good all around.
That said, their Android mobile app is a bit janky at times. Then again, lots of stuff on Android is a bit janky...
Go read the DJI hardware/software support forums.
Never. Again.
To be fair, from what I understand the no fly zone restrictions thing actually does require geolocation lookup and I think those no fly zones can change, so pinging a server and checking in makes sense.
From just a pure telemetry perspective, knowing where people are flying the drones at is useful for product development and marketing.
(In response, DJI did release a privacy mode that doesn't need internet.)
A sizable % of websites visited want geo-location data, which, at times, gets sold on the open market!
Then there are background phone apps that grab location data. Even when rate limited, once every half an hour is plenty enough to figure out where Military Secret is at.
Infosec, it is a thing for a reason.
Not exactly. Issue a map file with the no-fly zones as shapes (as easy as possible to save on space) and embed it with a creation timestamp. Force an update every 30 days - have the app download the file and upload it to the drone. Manipulating the drone time won't work as it gets its time directly from GPS.
Also these patch files should not clock in too much - the entirety of Europe's streets can be squeezed into ~3 GB (download size of full Navigon EU map set)... I'd assume a 512MB flash chip would be sufficient to store all the world's no fly zones.
Bootstrapping a tech economy gets a lot easier when people hand you the keys to the kingdom in exchange for short-term profits, without even requiring equal access to your domestic market in return.
Despite being known for kaizen processes implemented as Plan -> Do -> Check -> Act or 5 Whys, Toyota's issues with unintended acceleration were partly blamed on flaws and spaghetti code in the RTOS controlling their Electronic Throttle Control System in some models:
https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_... http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...
That's just one example. There's the CAN bus car hacking via OnStar and more examples out there. Would this kind of analysis help more than say, simply implementing better software development methodologies?
I suspect a majority of their cash flow comes from those training seminars, and the $150K book is just to get you in the door and interested.
I would love to see a breakdown of their revenue.
I heard the owner/chief engineer give a talk a while ago, specifically about the i3, and he said the report was originally priced at $500k for the full thing. So it's possible that the price of these reports drop with age.
Edit: they also do perform costing on a contract basis. So an OEM will actually pay them to tear down a competitor vehicle, and Munro reserves the rights to sell that report too.
http://www.oica.net/wp-content/uploads/World-Ranking-of-Manu...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manufacturers_by_motor...
https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/conservation/why-we-mus...
The article also didn't mention any reverse engineering of the software - I'm sure someone could clone the physical parts of an i3 and have a vastly substandard product because without a thorough understanding of the software...
Why should anyone be held responsible to find a flaw in a 3rd party product and not report it? It might be considered unethical if a life-threatening issue, yes, but IMHO there is no way to attach legal responsibility.
I'm wondering what if they found one car infringing another car's design or engineering IP without fulfilling a license, or if they would find certain car makers "reinvent the wheel" simultaneously. A lot of car makers need to properly license certain design from other car makers. I wonder if this also helps facilitating and defending these licensable designs, or encouraging open sourcing design in cars.
I suspect the overall outcome of finding similar design and borrow existing design from one car maker into another is a good thing for bringing the cost down.
Takata actually is the perfect example: no matter what car manufacturer there is, they all ended up on the infamous airbag recall list: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recall-spotlight/takata-air-bags
All of that information is required knowledge for the business to operate and production to continue. You can't make something if you don't even know what materials you need to make it, nor if you don't know how to put it together.
In the case of extremely low production with hand-fitting the documented process may vary some from the actual process but it shouldn't be so significant that one product does not even resemble another.
Besides many countries do require automobile mass market vendors to offer spare parts and docs on FRAND conditions to "unconnected" repair shops already.
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/parts/1929_32/index.htm...
...and from it we can also glean somewhat surprising historical facts, such as the fact that pistons were $1.75 each: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/parts/1929_32/2932mppl0...
I think a lot of manufacturers did this.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11879869
https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expe...