The fanciest shopping center in America is expanding | Hacker News Reader

The fanciest shopping center in America is expanding

bloomberg.com

84 pointslnguyen67 comments

I'm not surprised that high-end retail is still doing fine. People want the luxury purchasing experience to be luxurious -- they'd rather buy their luxury goods in boutiques than get them delivered in a cardboard box from Amazon.

Part of that may simply be wariness about spending a lot of money on stuff that's going to be shipped and could be lost, but that's not all. Owning the luxury goods themselves is only part of the experience -- being treated well during the purchase and during future customer service interactions is a big part of the draw of luxury items. You don't get that from most online retailers.

I think the bigger part is that a lot of luxury goods are very hard to select without seeing them in person. Clothes are an obvious one, since you wouldn't want to buy them without trying them on (and, at the higher end, getting them tailored). But the same goes for all sorts of fashion products - leather, handbags, jewelry... you don't know whether it's what you want until you can try it on, feel the material, and see the true color.

Very true, and staff at these places offer an experience. They curate a specific look for you and are subject matter experts. I went to a high end dispensary and the experience vs a more basic one was more than worth the premium

And the fear of counterfeit. Buy a $100 handbag and maybe it's counterfeit, oh well. Buy a $2,000 handbag and maybe it's counterfeit, unacceptable.

Except for dedicated online outlets delivered by the luxury brand itself, which luxury brands are no doubt loathe to do (e.g. why cannibalize my own stores, when no other company distributes my brand anyway), I doubt people would ever buy specific high-end brands they covet online without some serious guarantees of authenticity. But again as a high end exclusive brand, why do I want to make it easier to buy my exclusive goods online?

Unless you buy that kind of stuff, you don't really know how well they treat you in those situations. You are literally a client of the sales person, not just some shopper. They keep in touch, they let you know when things that you might like come in, just all around amazing service. Obviously that comes with the cost.

That honestly sounds like a nightmare. The last thing I want when shopping is to be hassled by salespeople.

Agreed. I recently went to a store like this to purchase a light fixture where I continuously had to interact with a salesperson who referred to their customers as "clients" and I quickly became exhausted. I will purchase my light fixture online or perhaps Home Depot.

It isn't "hassled." The way sales people interact with you at normal stores is nothing like the interaction at a higher end store. If you don't want to be bothered in a high end store, you aren't bothered.

Really good stores and salespeople are magic and I totally buy into their illusion.

I love going to the Gucci store it's kind of the pinnacle of service you can't get online. 1:1 salesperson follows you and helps pick out pieces and pull sizes, usually with sparkling water to take your time. As you mention you can build a relationship past one transaction. They always compliment: you look great, good fit, makes you look skinny, etc. Really good salespeople pick up on your style and provide actual good direction. Sometimes I'll get this is the last size we have in the US type tactic, which for most stores would be total BS to me right away but for them I almost buy it (Gucci does intentional small runs to sell out now it seems).

The psychology of it works (for me at least) even if you know they're tricking you to spend more (less deceitful hard to describe, like massaging you with dopamine into spending more $)!

That's the magic. I always go in with one specific item in mind that I researched online but never leave with just one thing...

I recently saw that Intuit is now offering a live 'accountant' videoconference to fill out your turbotax. I wonder how far off we are from using some AR/VR and live person to facilitate more of this in person shopping service remotely.

I'm not trying to target you per se, but you did give an anecdote about it.

Gucci is pure name. Their quality is better than average, but the price is nowhere reasonably higher than the average quality. Frankly, the money is wasted because someone stroked your ego with powerful psychology and manipulation. This is only slightly different than catering to "whales" the free-to-play markets, but just with a bit more customer service.

Most "popular" products are the same way. They paid celebs to carry their product, or use their product. Frankly, who cares? The celebs are being paid, whereas you pay.

If you have your name on my stuff, then I'm advertising your brand. You either gave it to me as swag, or you're paying me for it. The last choice, is it's a nonprofit and you're doing advertising to help them. Aside that, you're paying for the benefit of bolstering and proving their name further. Nope nope, and nope.

Concierges? Sure, I understand having hand-holding assistance. Some people do need that, as many of us in IT are well aware of. But there is a difference between "I'm not sure if that would work for you", versus "You just look stunning with that hat on. That hat just works exceptionally with you! And that parfum - oh so elegant! (add more unintended shit to buy)"

"add more unintended shit to buy"

What exactly is wrong with that?

A good portion of people who shop at a place like Gucci that don't do it for the utility and value for money, so neither of those two standards will apply to them.

I think they do but not in the ordinary way.

The only way to give people the signal "I have a five-thousand dollar bag" is to go buy a five-thousand dollar bag. The value is not in the bag but in the message of owning (and being able to own) one, addressed to a certain audience that is very sensitive to these signals and that also matters in your life. I'm sure Gucci bags have opened doors that other bags with a fraction of the price haven't so there's utility value, too. It just fits with goals and with social behaviour that isn't very common in regular people, not to mention engineers.

> with goals and with social behaviour that isn't very common in regular people, not to mention engineers.

You think using brands to signal status isn't normal? You might consider counting cars with no badges, or going to a coffee shop and counting the literally glowing logos. As for engineers, have you never seen a sticker-bombed laptop? Never had colleagues who wear the conference shirt or carry the conference bag? What about collegiate hoodies?

It's not a judgement on you if you truly don't care about brands or status signaling in any arena, but surely you recognize it's the rule not the exception.

None of those are apt comparisons because people don't pay for the brand signaling.

Laptop stickers and conference shirts are free or dirt cheap. The logos you see in a coffee shop on electronics are side effects of purchasing the product. I would still buy an MBP without the lighted apple on the back because I'm buying it for it's utility and quality. Nobody would buy a Gucci bag without the logo.

Social signaling through brands is not as common as you would like to believe. This can be seen by how many people buy clothes that are close to cost (Gap, Walmart, etc).

Walmart has a lot of good basic clothes but a lot of people -- even people who aren't particularly rich -- just wouldn't dream of buying clothes there because it has blue-collar associations. This is really just one element of the rich tapestry of signals a person gives you as to their social class (clothes and language are probably the most distinctive and immediately noticeable signifiers).

Meh, that's not my experience with middle class folks. The only complaints I would hear about Walmart stuff is bad fits, etc.

I think you're referring to upper middle class people, which is a much smaller portion of the population.

I never said anything about money being required for social signaling. If you're signaling that you spend a lot of money, then you need to spend a lot of money.

If, however, you're signaling that you're a serious engineer who doesn't care about fashion, you wear and do other things. This also doesn't need to be consciously considered to still be happening. Ask yourself why so many engineers who work in air conditioned offices wear hoodies but never put the hood up. At the core, social signaling is about saying "I belong to this group" and possibly "I'm high-status within this group". For whatever value group takes on for (the rhetorical) you.

Edit: There's also the problem of it being the fashion, especially outside the fashion crowd, to talk about how much one doesn't care about fashion or signaling. Which is in itself frequently a kind of signaling.

Sorry, that doesn't fit the narrative because there isn't one brand associated with hoodies. You can pickup a hoodie for close to cost in almost any city. If there were 10,000 different companies that made products indistinguishable from Gucci, then you might have an argument.

You seem stuck on money, so I'll repeat this with a slight expansion.

I never said anything about money being required for social signaling. If you're signaling that you spend a lot of money, then you need to spend a lot of money. There are other kinds of status one signals, money and brands is just one example.

I'm referring to brands because you said this:

>You think using brands to signal status isn't normal?

We're not talking about social signaling in general. You are the one who mentioned brands and tried to imply everyone was doing it because you can see lots of brands. I pointed out why that was bogus and now you are changing the subject to social signaling in general, which is not the topic.

A good way to tie the money and non money aspects of signaling is to change the definition capital. Sure there's financial capital, but also social capital (who you know can often be an asset) and intellectual capital (i.e. what you know).

Different groups have different methods of valuing the different types of capital, so the serious engineer example can be someone who has a lot of one type, an an average amount of the other types of capital. Basically just a paraphrasing of the signaling point but a useful model nevertheless IMO.

The "Add more unintended shit to buy" was in parentheses as how the salesperson approaches the whale.

The problem I'm trying to show with that, is that they hunt the whales the same way free-to-play Lootboxes work. Gucci is a "lootbox", because you never know how you'll enjoy your purchase!

Many of us consider things like lootboxes, extensive psychological manipulation, facebook running 'studies', and many other phenomena that revolve around unwilling subjects. It's horrible to cheat those lower classes with EA's (and others) lootboxes, or free-to-play that equates more money = winning. But when I highlight similar actions being done at "rich people stores", people come up to defend their.. right to use those tools.

Agree with you there.

> If you have your name on my stuff, then I'm advertising your brand.

You could say the exact same thing for folks who have an Apple product prominently featuring the Apple logo.

You can, but there is no alternative so what choice do people have?

You could not buy an Apple, and I'll bet a lot of people specifically do like the logo.

This comes across as pretty judgemental and ironically given it's "let me open your eyes" tone, misses the point entirely.

The money isn't wasted, it has accomplished it's twin goals; proving that the wearer is part of the group which knows about and can afford Gucci, and having an enjoyable shopping experience. The fact that you appear to not care about signals of social standing (or rather, of standing in that group; assiduously avoiding logos is it's own signal) doesn't make them any less real.

Did you gloss over the part where GP points out they are fully aware of, and even enjoy and seek out, the experience of shopping there? Why do you say it's a waste then?

>>Gucci is pure name. Their quality is better than average, but the price is nowhere reasonably higher than the average quality. Frankly, the money is wasted because someone stroked your ego with powerful psychology and manipulation.

Do you realize that USA alone has over 10 million millionaires? And maybe 100 million can afford (by sacrificing for a few months) one or a few things from Gucci. Why not buy something really cool? You might die tomorrow so why not enjoy a bit of your money today. And, no, items from Gucci, D&G or Coach aren't the sane as knockoffs.

On the other hand, you can buy used clothes for a few dollars or get them for free...

Do you realize that many of those millionaires have gotten to that position by saving and studiously contributing to a retirement account/mortgage payment while on a regular income? A significant portion of those would never even think about spending money at Gucci.

Gucci's clientele are the 5m+ crowd and people obsessed with social signaling.

There's a happy medium somewhere between blowing all your money on frivolities and never enjoying any of it. I wear a lot of clothes from Walmart, but I spent $2k on my PC when I built it and I'm driving a car that, while reasonable within my budget, is more expensive than something like a Camry. I can easily imagine someone else going with a cheaper car and computer but preferring fancy clothes and accessories.

>>A significant portion of those would never even think about spending money at Gucci.

and a "significant" portion apparently do. This money thing is weird...at some point you realize that you actually can afford x, y, and z. So you start enjoying it.

No you don't. Just because some people waste money on something doesn't mean everyone or even a majority does.

If meth dealers were legal, they would be positioned right next to Gucci stores. The markup is similar and the utility is about the same.

Just to share anecdotes ... My wife has had two Coach bags and the quality really shows after several years of daily use and no marks of wear and tear. It's not all branding.

Gucci is a pretty different class from Coach, isn't it? I think the difference between a $50 handbag and a $300 handbag is likely much more noticeable than the difference between a $300 handbag and a $3000 handbag.

That's why I say buy into their illusion in the first sentence!

But also I love Alexandro Michelle and his aesthetic. Sure my Gucci cords probably aren't as sturdy as my Patagonia, but the Gucci ones come with some cool embroidery and are tailored specifically.

> People want the luxury purchasing experience to be luxurious -- they'd rather buy their luxury goods in boutiques than get them delivered in a cardboard box from Amazon.

Just curious, did you look at the article? This is one of the main points in it.

It's that mindset that leads many semi-rich people to bankruptcy. Most NFL and NBA athletes go bust after their athletic career.

You can only spend about 4% a year of what you've got.

Athletes don't go bankrupt because they buy expensive things. They go bankrupt because their family, friends, and financial advisors take advantage of them and siphon off their money for their own purposes.

Of course they do. They buy cars, boats, restaurants, etc that all plummet in value.

Yeah, but they do that because their corrupt financial advisors tell them to, and enrich themselves on the fees.

There is no financial advisor suggesting the purchase of boats or cars.

I saw the title and I thought, "Bal Harbor Shops is expanding?" Yep.

This article leaves out one of the more bizarre parts of Bal Harbor to me. As you drive around, you mainly notice three things: really expensive shops, super-expensive cars, and families of Orthodox Jews.

When I lived in South Florida, somebody once explained to me that the orthodox Jews lived in a different area nearby until they were pushed into North Miami Beach. Around the mid-1980s, they successfully sued the local government to remove racist laws preventing black and Jewish people from moving into the neighborhood (though it would appear something prevented any black people from moving in). The Sephardic Jewish population in this absolutely tiny, super-rich "village" between Miami Bay and the Atlantic Ocean is growing so much, they just spent $20 Million to expand their one shul. The power of the local orthodox Jewish population is such that they recently passed a local ordinance to include "criticism of Israel" as a potential hate crime.

It's hard for me to not sound really racist while describing this, but it really is strange to go through the entirety of Miami/Dade and nearby counties and cities, which is basically mostly full of caribbean and latino people, and then hit this super-rich exclusive pocket of real estate, which just happens to be super Orthodox and European. It's just weird. (The only other area nearby that I know of that has a similar population is Hollywood, Florida, though I have no idea why)

If nothing else, don’t miss the mini management game:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/american-mall-game/

I’m always happy to see these kinds of games accompany articles as a different way of communicating the message (like the one for driving a rideshare).

This was really fascinating. This game just confirmed the patterns that I have seen in declining Malls

I grew up five minutes from Bal Harbour Shops and thought it was a pretty terrible mall all throughout my childhood since it had no arcade, KB Toys, or Electronics Boutique.

It’s pretty amazing how it and Aventura Mall continue to grow. I guess Latin America hasn’t gotten the message that retail is dead (in reality, a flight to Miami and an empty suitcase is a bargain compared to the prices folks see at home).

I used to live in Surfside, which is right next door to the Bal Harbour Shops. Hard to tell from photos, but the mall is TINY.

Also, the foot traffic is really light. Most people seem to hang out at the few cafés or restaurants. But I suppose with prices like that, they need a lot less traffic to pay rent.

You mentioned them hanging out at restaurants. I think malls are reinventing themselves into destinations for high end cuisine more than retail. This is a place where people go to see and be seen, no better place for that than a bar/restaurant.

I agree with you. I’ve been to Bal Harbour Shops multiple times to eat and hangout at Carpaccio. I’ve never purchased anything from the stores. I see other malls in Miami bulding new restaurants.

Small world! I grew up in Surfside (from 1991 until I left for college in 2003).

Since the title doesn't tell you, it's about Bal Harbour Shops in Miami Beach, though others are name-checked too.

I think malls in FL in general are doing ok because of the tourists from Latin America. This is just an anecdotal observation, but The Florida Mall in Orlando is always filled with Brazilian and other Latin American tourists looking to find a deal in the US

Yes, spanish and portuguese is all you hear when walking through the malls in South Florida.

Check out the Stanford mall. Sign at food store: "Champagne and caviar - enjoy them tonight". Or, as I once overheard from a female freshman, "Did you know this place has a totally awesome mall?"

Bal Harbour is chic no question. With excellent people (and autos) watching ;)

But the "vias" in Palm Beach off of Worth Avenue are much more charming. And the conversation much more stimulating!

High end malls in the GTA are the only ones expanding currently as well. Yorkdale and Square One are pretty much complete with their massive new buildouts.

The Bal Harbour shops are honestly done.

Miami Design District has literally transformed Miami into the Mecca of fashion shopping.

Anyone who has their things in a twist about Bal Harbour after all these years has some kind of old beef or something going on. S@BH are already over. Miami Design District has put a total end to Bal Harbour. It has no hope.

Take a trip to Miami, go to NE 40th and NE 1st and then let me know about how great Bal Harbour is. It's over.

Would you like to say the same thing in a different way one more time?

Repetition makes reputation and reputation makes customers.

Are you a Markov Chain?

Your writing is confusing. Your first sentence should have been structured as such:

The Bal Harbour shops are honestly done for.

or,

Honestly, the Bal Harbour shops are done.

Honestly, you're right.

> Miami Design District has literally transformed Miami into the Mecca of fashion shopping.

Lol no it hasn't. It wouldn't even be number one in the USA, let alone globally. Just having a few high-end stores doesn't make Miami a "Mecca" of anything.

Maybe South Americans fly to Miami specifically for fashion shopping but no-one else would, not even from within the US.

The money the 5% have is expanding.

Not as fast a the money of the 0.5%.

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