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Comment by bald | Hacker News Reader

Who do you think is the authority on this?

The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class.

Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.

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The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive.

If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.

Hmm, really? What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium. On the outside I think they look comparably luxurious to a Mercedes a class of BMW 7. The inside amenities is where they fall short in my opinion.

Oh come on, the panel gaps and production issues on a Tesla would get a Mercedes manager killed!

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-video-revie...

Edit: Sorry that was a Model 3, here’s the S

https://insideevs.com/teardown-expert-test-drives-tesla-mode...

That's a Model 3, not a Model S

Good point, oops! I’ve edited my comment to make that point, and include the correct tearsown.

There was only one (publicly released) teardown. Munro seems to have released only two, one of the Model 3 and one of the car he considers to be the "most advanced vehicle on the planet", the i3. Considering the extreme opposite outcomes of his only two public teardowns, I'd be curious to see how measured his views on other cars would be or whether there's any hyperbole here.

Does anyone have any other Munro teardowns? Or perhaps any other independent source reconfirming his view?

That review is incredibly biased and concerns the Model 3 not the Model S.

Yeah, Teslarati.com is ever so biased against Tesla. :|

Does biased just mean “I don’t like it!” these days?

Cherry picking a single sample, getting facts wrong about the 12V port and handles, not even doing a comparison with the handles on other cars?

I mean, having Detroit car makers, notorious for bad build quality, and critique Tesla reeks of people like Steve Ballmer criticizing Apple, or the ULA folks running critics of SpaceX.

Biased means I this case, a tear down free of context. What’s the defect rate of Detroit built cars of similar class and age? How many recalls have they endured?

So a combination of wishing they’d destroyed a dozen cars, and “wasaah Detroit was bad too!”

I’m starting to get a sense of where the bias really lies, thanks.

You’d be wrong. I own a Honda Odyssey, not a Tesla. Do you own a German car?

You don’t need to be an owner to be biased, but fair question either way. No, I don’t own a German car, and never have. In fact no one in my family has, based on a promise to my grandfather, a Jew who fought in WWII. So really, my bias is decidedly anti-German, but I still respect the engineering. By the same token, VW engaged in wrongdoing did not shock me.

Your new edit is also about the Model 3... and even appears to be citing the same original source.

It's sort of like comparing a house decorated from Design Within Reach modern furniture to a house decorated with 18th century ornate, solid-wood antiques.

Maybe nobody will believe me, but the first time I saw a Tesla Model S in person was a few months ago, when it stopped in front of me at a traffic light.

I couldn't read the word "Tesla" and only saw an unfamiliar car with a logo I hadn't seen before.

My thoughts were "what strange Chinese crap trying to look like a big car is this?". Really.

I know, sounds stupid. I was able to read "Tesla" shortly thereafter and certainly felt stupid, not recognizing the car or the logo after reading so much about Tesla.

My opinion has slightly changed, in the meantime, I don't see them anymore and think of "cheap" and "wannabe", but I suspect that my initial feeling was the true one and I'm now subconsciously factoring in that I know it is a Tesla.

Still, they badly need an experienced "conventional" designer if they see themselves as one of the luxury Mercedes or BMW cars. But I suspect they don't see themselves like that and actively try to force a new design language into the market and create a new niche.

This thread has got me thinking about what luxury looks like and I think brand prestige plays a lot in our perceptions. When we think Bentley, Audi, BMW or Mercedes we think high end luxury because of their history and lineage. Those brands also use very unique design language. BMW has it's characteristic 4 globe headlamps, Audi with it's minimalist aesthetic, etc. We've associated those designs with luxury.

When you first see the Hyundai Genesis line of cars you think it's some sort of high end fine European luxury vehicle because they copied the design language of luxury brands. However when you realize they're Hyundais you immediately think "oh garbage".

When Toyota first starting making the Lexus line they look like glossy versions of their Toyota counterparts and it took many years for them to develop a distinctive design aesthetic. Honda had similar issues with the Acura line in the US and I would argue they still do because the Acura line doesn't exist in other markets so those vehicles are branded as Honda. The Honda Odyssey has always looked more like an Acura to me.

Tesla to their credit didn't try to cash in the prestige of another brand by copying their design language. Tesla's design language is a blank slate in our mind so when we see it we don't know what to expect. We try to associate it with what we know, in this case you thought Chinese crap.

I dont' think true luxury is meant to "look". There's the iconic Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Porsche designs that most people recognize, but plenty of luxury cars look quite average. It's only when you're inside that you realize why they're luxury. I loved the VW Phaeton for this - yes, I know, not the highest end luxury, but it looks like a Passat on the outside and feels like an S class on the inside imo.

The Toyota Century is another example of this kind of luxury car. It's tailor-made for conservative Japanese businessmen who have a lot of money and enjoy riding in comfort but have no desire to show off.

Here's a good article on the Century and the kind of luxury it represents:

http://autoweek.com/article/tokyo-motor-show/no-modern-luxur...

Off topic, but just a side note. If you test drive the high end Genesis, you will no longer think "oh garbage". They are amazing cars for the price. On paper, they are better in almost every way than a BMW and their highest end Genesis (previously Equus) is actually nipping at the heels of a Bentley when it comes to features. As for driving, I definitely prefer the feel of a BMW 7, but I thought it was comparable to a BMW 3 or 5.

In Europe, the Model S indeed seems to blend in. I can understand it has interesting line in the US market, but in the EU, it does not stand out much. I confused it before with Ford, Jaguar, Peugeot or indeed some rarer brand, especially before the front refresh.

I personally find it quite attractive, it is a crowd pleasing design, but as a first model it could have used some sort of design extravagance. Something that scream "there is a Tesla 5 car down" even if you have just seen the rear corner of the boot or a light. Missed quite a few opportunities to tell people to look at the Tesla because, well, I didn't see it myself.

Yeah I think it uses pretty generic design language along the lines of Audi A4/5. And it’s been approximately the same for 6 years now. They’re going to have to do an extensive refresh across all models pretty soon or it’s going to look really tired. Inside and out.

Edit: I don’t mean it looks like an Audi (obviously I hope) I mean it’s conservative design language similar to Audi.

No, you're right, it looks like a Hyundai or Kia to me. Not exactly Chinese crap, but nothing out of the ordinary, until I recognize the logo and "wow, a Model S" :D

I think you're underestimating how much hacking was required to get Model S into production, and how much that causes the design to generally feel cheap. Changing suppliers over and over, rushing new designs to solve problems in other systems, that kind of stuff leads to subtle incompatibilities in the overall architecture.

Model S is basically a V1 car. Audi has made a dozen generations of vehicles, each time getting another chance to refine the design.

The Model 3 is a big leap forward in fit and finish, albeit in a simpler design, without "premium" flourishes.

The next gen Model S will be Tesla's first real foray into designing a serious premium interior on purpose, with experience. It'll be interesting to see how it does.

> What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium.

It's not that it doesn't look premium, it's that it doesn't look luxury. What about a Tesla makes it look more expensive than an Honda Accord or Mazda 6?

When I look at a Tesla it very much reminds me of Mazda. It looks like it's built for performance.

That's because the main designer[1] is ex-Mazda.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen

The inside of one looks and feels like a Prius, with a Kindle for a center console.

It's kind of fun how some people see the center console as "the future", and others hate it. Fortunately, Tesla doesn't need a majority of consumers to love it.

I'm not completely opposed to digital center consoles, but I'd expect something that feels less flimsy on an $85,000 car.

Really?? Not sure what gen 7er you're comparing to but the interior quality of the Model S reminded me more of a Toyota than anything German. Interior-wise, BMW has stepped up their game in recent years but Mercedes/Audi interiors are still considered better overall, especially in the higher end models.

I believe we're saying the same thing.

Tesla's own positioning has authority on the subject: their communication says "premium" cars. That's completely different than luxury.

Of course, that doesn't mean you are not right to feel prestige with a Tesla, and that's something important with luxury in general: what's luxury to someone can be absolute garbage to someone else. And quite often, premium products can be of higher quality than luxury products (luxury is often tied to quality, but most importantly brand history, hand-crafted parts, access to some social status, etc).

This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is.

The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.

I would argue that it's more a factor of cost than size. Each segment contains vehicles of a variety of sizes, in the Oberklasse you have everything from 2 door supercar up to large SUVs.

The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria.

If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".

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