Denied Breaks, U.S. Poultry Workers Wear Diapers on the Job (2016) | Hacker News Reader

Denied Breaks, U.S. Poultry Workers Wear Diapers on the Job (2016)

bloomberg.com

46 pointsmarojejian42 comments

This is exactly the kind of thing for which (in my experience), libertarians of the type common in tech don't have a good answer.

Preventing this kind of abuse involves regulation, either directly or via unions (which themselves must have regulatory support in order to work.)

The free market can't solve all problems.

The current US of A evolved from a Libertarian country as it was proven, decade by decade, that money and power wouldn't create neighborly generosity but rather cruel oppression and greed.

There is always a case for making the company responsible for the things it does. It is liable for the health hazards of their policies?

Its not a free market.

When you have indentured labor, these things happen.

Give every imported worker a time limited Green Card / Full Work Authorization, and you wont see any such abuse.

Libertarian or not, when you shackle the imported labor of America (both skilled and unskilled), there is no incentive for the employer to give better work conditions, because they know that they have salves to do the work.

And when you ask libertarians about the issue, they will always say that it's the responsibility of the single company. Stalemate.

>The free market can't solve all problems.

No, the "free market" has decided that the workers have a value below minimum wage to the company employing them. Remove the minimum wage and the workers will get more breaks, but earn less overall.

> Preventing this kind of abuse involves regulation

Or it may be a side effect of what regulation exists such as increased taxes for full time employment or minimum wage?

That's just swapping one kind of abuse for another. It is already almost impossible to survive on minimum wage in many parts of the country.

Stated bluntly: there is nothing stopping the free market from abusing or killing people if the incentives align that way. If we decide we are better than that as a society, regulation is needed.

> there is nothing stopping the free market from abusing or killing people if the incentives align that way. If we decide we are better than that as a society, regulation is needed

Well, thats true. Any "thing" stopping the free market from abusing\killing people is a form of regulation. Just like you're not allowed to auction off your own organs, or collect and auction organs of others to pay off debts.In a "free market", you would have the ability to market your body too.

> It is already almost impossible to survive on minimum wage in many parts of the country

Do you feel people should consider this while having children? If you're poor, most of the time your kids will grow up poor\min wage as well. Should you have kids?

A break should be law-mandated, and it is in VERY FEW states: https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/rest.htm.

Holy shit. I thought that all states (federally) had mandatory regulations for at least unpaid rest breaks every certain number of hours worked, but this is horrifying. And only 20 states have mandatory lunch breaks! Even those aren't required to be paid. WTF. I've lived in two of those states my whole life so I just assumed everyone had that...

You are not alone. As an immigrant to the United States (coming from Europe where I built my career but originally from Africa), I can guarantee you that is a very popular conception. I continue to meet people who assume that their holidays are federally mandated for instance, but it is not the case. The US is alone among the developed world in this regard, and it is quite shameful.

There are not paid breaks or lunch breaks in the federal government, either. On the other hands, smokers get breaks. The non-smokers in my office once took a single 30-45 minute "smoke break" on Fridays. Eventually, our supervisor's manager joined in, saying it made sense.

I mean paid or unpaid, people need to be given some kind (food, rest, or otherwise) of a break in a 6-8 hour period.

And even in those that do, it's not applicable when workers are under a collective bargaining agreement. Workers get only what the CBA provides for.

I worked in a union shop in CA where there were no explicit breaks whatever for our 6.5-hour shift. We could generally get away here and there for bathroom breaks, get coffee, etc. because management wasn't populated by jerks... unlike management of this particular union local.

Sounds like mandatory video records of the production lines is a necessary first step... reviewable by anyone at any time and with missing footage fineable (backup cameras are not prohibitively expensive).

Again, outside independent monitoring and a serious expectation of financial losses are the only ways corporations are made to follow their own statements and 'best practices'.

Additionally, this is potential malfeasance in the process of providing our food supply - there should be a higher standard here.

Are you sure they aren't being denied paid breaks? I thought being denied breaks was illegal, but some states let employers force employees to punch out first. You could argue against that, but it makes sense in jobs where the end product is objectively measurable and you're being paid for that narrow job. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's likely that if they're being denied paid breaks, taking an unpaid break would result in being fired.

I worked in a seafood plant that wasn't this bad, but had similar policies.

- During rushes, it actually made sense. You can't stop the line because someone needs a break.

- You learn to regulate your fluid intake/output to correspond to the scheduled breaks. Eventually you adapt.

- These are tough, grueling entry-level positions. There are many, many awful things about this type of work that you just accept.

- Floor managers are often some of the dumbest people you will run into. Anyone smart enough is saving the money for another job/college. The people promoted to supervisors really don't want to apply themselves to another line of work. As such, they all have a mentality of wanting their floors to look busy, even if there is not a lot of work on hand. Having a powertrip over denying bathroom breaks is often part of this.

Sorry, this isn't something that should be accepted. The company should have adequate capacity to compensate for a body break. If they don't, then they aren't hiring enough people and they should hire more people. I'm sorry that you had to endure this, but you shouldn't. It's unacceptable working conditions.

What else but a union could prevent this sort of mistreatment?

Laws with proportionate fines and regular inspections / reporting. But unions are really the best way

Such laws are usually also a product of union activity, which involves more than just contract negotiations.

Human dignity.. basic human dignity, should have prevented this.

Put a mission statement in one hand, and an optimizable revenue stream in the other, and see which hand the management chain goes for...

A better job offering for sure.

Employees moving to other companies which may pay less with better working conditions?

Unionized employees are exempted from such break requirements under law: it's up to the union to negotiate it into the CBA.

Sounds like brutal work. Does anyone here have experience with this type of work? Is there a reason why processing poultry hasn't been automated? If we have automation systems that can put cars together, surely processing chicken is within the realm of possibility?

The car problem is considerably easier because it's predictable. Parts have tolerances. With poultry, you're dealing with a natural product with quite a wide range of shapes and sizes.

de-regulation & free market will make right! Let's have the product labels indicate whether workers wore diapers and have the consumers decide the direction of worker conditions.

That is contradicting - such labels would be regulation. The best free market are small family run poultries where you can witness meat preparation yourself, no need for labels.

As a Scandinavian, the US really seems like a supersad nation.

It's important to understand that the US is a big complicated beast, it's not just one way or the other. Parts really are "supersad" and a lot of other parts aren't.

If it is any consolation, this is neither the norm nor legal in the US and at least one of the companies in question claims they give 2 x 30 minute breaks per 8hr shift

Dual US and Swedish citizen here. While this article is on the extreme end of things, the income inequality and lack of workers rights in the US is absolutely insane for a developed country, especially when looking at it from the Scandinavian point of view.

Not saying I disagree with your emotional reaction, I think I have a pretty similar one, but the US is a huge place. Different parts of the country have different problems. This is what it looks like when all the available jobs suck in your area--you have little leverage to improve your situation. I think government has probably failed these people. However, even in rural areas, there may be enough money around to have a comfortable life in a supporting industry. So many people don't see what you see in this article regularly, I think, meaning self-awareness in the US may be low.

It's hard to see the situation improving for anyone but land owners in the city and huge corporations, though.

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. Such discussions are always the same, which defeats the purpose of this site.

It's not ideological like "taxation is theft" and whatnot, but overweening national generalization works the same way for practical purposes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It is, but most people will deny it. Like Morpheus said in the Matrix: 'You have to understand. Most people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured and so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.'

It's what we're taught here. An absurd mixture of patriotism and narcissism so strong that it's practically synonymous with America now. Those two ideas intertwined support this entire nation and enable the sad places in this country that form your opinion. If we could tone them down, we could really see a revitalization in the American Dream. Not sure it'll happen absent being dethroned as a world power.

Thats meta. Start treating the workers as the poultry.

Next, feed them and force them to stay still, so they gain weight and spend more time taking care of the chickens.

In order to read this article it looks like you need to subscribe to Bloomberg Professional Service. I fear that will lead to discussion here solely based on the title.

Based on the title, it doesn't seem to me that HN is a remotely suitable place for this. If the text isn't even open that pretty much seals it.

I like the generally open HN policy on topics as much as the next nerd, but folks, if the article is basically "You'll be SHOCKED At How Steaming Mad This Will Make You!" with no connections to SV or tech or any intellectual topic, it really doesn't belong here. If you want a steady stream of that stuff, goodness knows the challenge is more in excluding this crap from your feed than getting more of it in our modern outrage-driven news culture.

(And for that matter even if you do have a connection to SV or tech and it's still just an "You'll be SHOCKED and OUTRAGED!" article, leave it off please.)

I've never been a big fan of Bloomberg articles. Either they are behind a paywall, or worse they use autoplay videos.

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