Comment by rschloming | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rschloming | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

The core of make is really just a control flow model that understands file dependencies as a first class thing, and permits arbitrary user supplied actions to be specified to update those files. All those default rules around how to handle C files are really more like a standard library and can be easily overridden as desired.

IMHO what makes it annoying for projects other than C or C++ is that there isn't an equivalent portion of makes "standard library" that applies to e.g. java, but this is largely because java went down a different path to develop its build ecosystem.

In an alternate reality java tooling might have been designed to work well with make, and then make would have a substantial builtin knowledge base around how to work with java artifacts as well as having a really nice UX for automating custom workflows, but instead java went down the road of creating monolithic build tooling and for a long time java build tooling really sucked at being extensible for custom workflows.

The thing about Java is that it has its own dependency system embedded in the compiler. This design decision made it difficult to integrate with a tool like make.

I don't think having dependencies built into the language and/or compiler means it needs to be difficult to integrate with something like make. In fact gcc has dependency analysis built into it. It just knows how to output that information in a simple format that make can then consume.

I feel like this choice has more to do with early java culture and/or constraints as compared to unix/linux. With "the unix way" it is really common to solve a problem by writing two separate programs that are loosely coupled by a simple text based file format. When done well, this approach has a lot of the benefits of well done microservices-style applications built today. By contrast, (and probably for a variety of reasons) this approach was always very rare in early java days. It seemed for a while like the norm was to rewrite everything in java and run it all in one giant JVM in order to avoid JVM startup overhead. ;-) The upshot being you often ended up with a lot more monolithic/tightly coupled designs in Java. (I think this is less true about Java today.)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com