A transportation engineer has a simple solution to potholes: pave better roads
thestar.com
thestar.com
Well, a pothole is not just a technological thing,
it's also a political entity. Usually we think of
European nations as steeped in governmental regulation,
and the United States as a free market, but actually
the opposite occurs in building roads. In the United States
the government sets specifications and asks contractors
to meet them. Once done with the road they have no
more responsibility.
Contrast this to France where the contractors must come
up with their own specifications and guarantee their work.
This means that if a pothole developers the contractor has
to fix it. But in the united States, once the job is done,
as long as it has met specifications, the contractor is no
longer liable.
1. https://www.amazon.com/How-engineers-create-world-commentari...> Well, a pothole is not just a technological thing, it's also a political entity. Usually we think of European nations as steeped in governmental regulation, and the United States as a free market, but actually the opposite occurs in building roads. In the United States the government sets specifications and asks contractors to meet them. Once done with the road they have no more responsibility.
> Contrast this to France where the contractors must come up with their own specifications and guarantee their work. This means that if a pothole developers the contractor has to fix it. But in the united States, once the job is done, as long as it has met specifications, the contractor is no longer liable.
(Please don't use code blocks for quotations.)
I retyped it from the screenshot on my way out the door at work and now note a number of mistakes.
Contractors are pre-approved for their ability to execute.
This technology likely has not been adopted due to difficulty and expense of manufacturing a robust machine and lack of marketing. How many people even knew this solution existed? What is the measurable benefit to paving roads this way? How much does the machine cost vs traditional roller method? All of this work is expensive and there isn't a guarantee of success. While the hypothesis seems reasonable you have to do all the math/science to figure out if this truly is cost effective. Ideas are great, execution is hard.
This doesn’t really work for government contractors because the government isn’t even remotely a rational buyer. The government doesn’t generally have the latitude to pick the best value - they are constrained by procedural rules. For example, in the US, 5% of federal small contractor spending must go to minority-owned businesses, regardless of their relative quality. Generally there is a fixed bidding procedure that doesn’t allow for judgements about the quality of the final product. Where the government isn’t constrained by procedural rules, politics will come before rational spending. This argument only really works for privately owned and operated roads that have rational incentives.
So, suffice to say, there is little real competition because most new competitors get literally threatened for their lives if they try to compete.
Construction companies routinely don't build each layer of road up to code. Thus potholes appear much sooner than they should.
If it isn't corruption, then how are they getting away with it?
This sounds great in theory but it doesn't work this way, at least in the private sector. Recently, I had to contract out a 100k pavement parking lot job for the first time for property management. I talked to about 10 different contracting firms, some being indepedent firms - and some firms directly employed by the asphalt plant.
Its very hard to tell what you are going to get if you haven't worked with that contractor before. Sure, everything is on a contract with specific line items that specifies each piece of work done (e.g. uproot asphalt where concrete meets it to pave evenly, compact a 2.5" to 2" using a specific grade mix [there's about 3-10 different mixes]), you can read contractor reviews online, but really how are YOU specifically going to measure the results? How do you know your contractor is really going to be doing a better job than another competitor?
What it all boiled down for me in selecting the vendor is whether or not they actually specified every concern I had regarding the parking lot job. Did they actually care about asking the right questions, did they put every concern I had in writing under the contract? Was the price reasonable? Did this person seem knowledgeable based on past experience? Honestly this is what it all boils down to most of the time in contractual-based jobs when selecting a contractor that is not the lowest bid job.
Public jobs are going to be slightly different, but to the extent the same, depending mostly on the city's municipality. I can't speak from experience here, but it would make much more sense for a government entity to employ stricter regulations on major road arteries (3-4 lane roads) using equipment such as the AMIR. But this is when you have to deal with government bureaucracy, and some contracting firms are not going to look to highly on the need to invest in more expensive equipment and reduce the potential number of jobs they have in the future (since there would be less maintenance needed). Not only that, but also the infrastructure in housing an AMIR along with other cost such as maintenance / training could become costly for the contracting firm.
Minor road arteries / minor jobs (1 or 2 lane roadways) probably not so much since its traditional rollers are extremely portable, have high availability (both for renting, contractors familiar with / used the equipment, etc) and require smaller more versatile machines and can be loaded on one trailer.
In addition, every city municipality is different. Your rural city in the middle of nowhere is not going to really care about using AMIR.
I don't know how much the AMIR cost, but for it to be adopted for widespread use, it would have to have the following:
1. Compact and portability for small and large jobs alike
2. Justified cost for short-term profitability for contractors
3. Enforcement by government and regulations to private industries to use such technology
And there's a snarky comment on page 163 about companies that have to fix roads after ripping them up ("breaking"): if they do condescend to cart anything away it is generally the metal, which they think will come in nicely for the repairs of the trench during their liability for such repairs.
TL/DR: your town engineer just needs to specify the right stuff in the contract, and the road paving companies will just have to adapt.
If you think about it, the same thing holds true for any large, bespoke contract. What you get at the end depends in part on the supervision you put in.
And there you go... goes against the contractors' interests to use more efficient means, so this compactor's use will have to be mandated by city governments who want to avoid the political backlash of public awareness of wasted budget. Or in other words, good luck with that grassroots campaign.
Mostly, I wonder how different the world would be if there was an incentive to build things that don't break.
This article is a little more sciency:
https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/Technology/2017...
The paver is the machine that catches the asphalt out of the dump truck and spreads it across the road.
IMHO that just makes the difference it produces even more impressive, I thought this was a totally different paving machine.
Also, asphalt isn't solid, it get thinner when the sun is high, deforming every time a car runs over it in the summer.
South of south America, more or less equivalent to Florida: no freezing during winter and not that hot during summer, but everytime there's many rainy days, holes will appear. Get few days of hot sun and the roads will deform a bit, specially where trucks and buses run over.
Are you calling North America "America", and then go on and call Florida "south America", as if there isn't such a place in the world as South America? I do not approve of this North America-centric view of the world at all.
I don't approve of getting upset over turns of phrase online. Principle of charity.
Well, that might be true for people living in the US but, and I might be going out on a limb here, it might not be so true for others.
And for a comment referencing Florida, is it charitable to apply something for continents to your stated interpretation? Principle of charity says not.
Specifically who refers to America/Americans in English as meaning "People who live on the continents in North and South America"? Lets hear names not an allusion to "others".
I'm only aware of a rather vocal minority of South American students recently getting angry at the term America being attributed to citizens of the USA. But its really no different from my aforementioned Mexico example in Spanish. Their category error is trying to redefine America from its shorteneed form for USA, to some super continent association of "America". But it goes against a lot of existing usage in not only English, but other languages. [1]
I respect that you have a position here, but frankly its a silly way to try to redefine the word America as its been spoken in English for a long time to refer to a super continent of both North and South America.
Example Portuguese, America refers to the USA, and to both Continents, aka like in English have to figure out the context: http://www.wordreference.com/enpt/america
French, pretty much the same, only the continent is generally called out separately as continent américain: http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/america
German, closer to French/English here but separate in that they tend to refer to the "americas" as north middle and south america, which is in many ways more appropo: https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/america
Japanese, i'm not as qualified with my 3 months of learning japanese to comment on this but given the Kanji in use they're already separated: https://jisho.org/search/america
Etc...
Also are you saying that all of the societies and engineering societies such as The American Society of Engineers should be required to change their name as they don't allow people from Canada, Central America, and South America to join? At a certain point I just can't find this position on the word America to make sense. Its just a weird thing to die by the sword on.
> I respect that you have a position here
Thank you. I appreciate you saying so.
> but frankly its a silly way
Yes, I was being silly. But only because if you bundle South America and North America and then go on to call the south of that super-continent "Florida", well, a globalist such as myself has to object.
Fair enough, but it read more as being willfully obtuse if anything.
USA is a terrible name, it could equally apply to any country, Canada say, in the American continent formed from multiple states.
It is wrong to call societies only for USAmericans "The American ...". The whole thing supports the idea that the only Americans worth bothering with are USian, it's extremely pompous and self-agrandising.
You should get a proper name.
Perhaps if things work out in Korea they'll call themselves the United States of Asia ...
Re Mexico, there's no continent called Mexico, no ambiguity or appearance of narcissism attaches to not using the full title. It's not at all equivalent.
America is not a continent, its two continental plates roughly separted at Panama via the Carribbean plate. Can you point me to a recording of someone using this terminology in real life? USAamerican is pronounced as ooh sa American or what? I can't see this catching on. Or oooh ess ian either. I doubt the Canadians want to get lumped in as Americans even under this nouveau definition.
> USA is a terrible name, it could equally apply to any country, Canada say, in the American continent formed from multiple states.
But it isn't that at all, which segues into:
> Re Mexico, there's no continent called Mexico, no ambiguity or appearance of narcissism attaches to not using the full title. It's not at all equivalent.
I was using that as a parallel in that we don't call mexico by its republic name.
Words can have multiple disparate meanings, America tends to have indicated a shortening of The United States of America. Do you believe citizens of this country can't name themselves?
You also conveniently omitted what english speaking region you are from so I can't follow up on how wide spread your version of things is/n't.
"USAmerican" - like U.S.A but with American replacing the A. Variations expected.
>America tends to have indicated a shortening of The United States of America //
To people who assume that it's the only place in America that anyone would talk about.
>Do you believe citizens of this country can't name themselves? //
How many current citizens chose that name; I'll go with none. If you asked the question "what should we name our union of states, one of several unions of states in America" I'd hope most intelligent people would think something other than USA was best.
I'm from the UK (which has a lot of stupid naming too, but that doesn't make USA a sensible name, bad naming elsewhere doesn't make this naming better). But for the purposes of this conversation that probably just counts as "not America" by which will be meant "not USA". /s
/rant
Depending on the geography class you took, and where, there might not be a "South America". Some countries just call the whole continent America:
Most North Americans are taught that there are 7 continents: Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia/Oceania. In some textbooks, North and South America are combined into "America" and/or Europe and Asia are combined into "Eurasia", for a grant total of 6 or even 5.
I do not approve of your 7-continent view of the World, as if it was the only one.
Culturally? Really? What's so different culturally between Colombia, Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, and say, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala Costa Rica to warrant each set belonging to another continent?
Sometimes languages use the same name for different things, and people can trivially disambiguate from context.
The southern part of South America, a similar distance from the equator as Florida.
"In the southern part of South America, more or less equivalent to Florida", probably referring to the southeast side of that continent.
This map indicates that areas of Argentina's, Uruguay's, Paraguay's, and southern Brazil's climates would fit the description of "more or less equivalent to Florida": https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/World_K%...
It seems that 1ms after a clean paved road is down, someone in another dept is plotting to tear it up to get at their utility, then hire 2 guys with a shovel to do a very halfassed patch job afterwards, which either is heaved up high or sunk down low. The halfassed patch will become a pothole for the next 10 years of repatching it badly over and over again.
There are two seasons in Pennsylvania, winter and construction.
I would guess that the mechanism of action is that water gets through the cracks and erodes the underlayment.
You can impact road surface wear by tweaking any of these variables. They all affected the surface, there is no single cause.
Back 35 or 40 years ago, Phillips petroleum was promoting a paving material that supposedly solved this problem. Where is it?
There may be single causes, we just need them all to marry single solutions.
In my experience, both.
Set aside for one moment this new roller, the reality is that road paving is not exact science, and - even if it was - it is largely executed badly.
Paving (and before paving the underneath layers) are more like "cooking" than everything else.
It is not like you have the right recipe, good ingredients and follow "instructions" accurately you can replicate some dishes.
Usually (of course it greatly depends in local uses and materials available) the first mistake is under-calculating the thickness and consistence of the bottom layers (gravel, sand, quarried rubble, sometimes mixed with cement or lime).
The second one (again usually, not always) is inadequate protection from running water (be it coming from rain or from the soil).
Then it comes the exact composition of the asphalt, the (right or wrong) type and quantity of bitumen, the temperature at which it is mixed, transported and layered, the amount of compacting, etc., etc.
In the last 20 years or so some great betterings have come from the use of reinforcing layers, both in the underpavement (woven or non-woven geotextiles) and in the asphalt itself (geogrids, usually plastic).
Whilst geogrids in asphalt are rather costly (both as material and additional work to lay them), high strength geotextiles are relatively cheap and it is surprising how - still today - they are not widely and universally used.
Both however are only good for highways and roads outside the city, as the benefit of these textiles is to spread as much as possible any dynamic action provoked by heavy traffic and loads onto the widest possible surface, but in urban contexts the surface (and up to 1-1.5 m depth) is "ruined" by every kind of duct, pipe, cable and other services, often re-cut (over and over) for maintenance/repair/replacement.
1) Most people don't care as much as I do about the bone-jarring, car-ruining potholes that are ubiquitous in every cold climate on earth, and thus aren't willing to spend their tax money on fixing it, or
2) Engineering a better road is simply too hard of an engineering problem, so what we have is the best we can do at the moment. Or equivalently, any better roads we do know how to make are too cost-prohibitive.
Maybe I'll forward this article to my local representatives.
Surprisingly, for as bad as roadway construction is in the states (and it's absolutely awful), the US apparently leads the rest of the world in the study of roadway materials.
Unless, of course, constituents start making an issue of it with their local representatives :)
(If a longer-lasting road had a much higher cost, then it'd clearly not be their issue at all, but the solution in the article sounds like it'd cost about the same.)
Reading this story, maybe the major problem is new technology adoption in government, for an infrastructure project, where measuring better performance takes years.
Each of this processes is long, and conservative, and risky and together they multiplies - so it's really hard to innovate here. And i don't think there are good strategies against that.
This is essentially the case. Asphalt roads as they exist today are basically a really good compromise of all the variables you care about in a road. They are farely durable, are easy to repair, can be laid across various terrains, give good traction, offer a continuous driving surface, shed water farely well, and are realtively cheap. For example cement roads last longer but are not continuous. They have those breaches every few yards that make that obnoxious bump... bump... bump experience. They also have inferior grip.
It's basically the same reason you probably have vinyl windows. Everyone kind of knows they aren't ideal but they are a good compromise of strength, cost and energy efficiency.
You can easily beat asphalt in any one given area but it's hard to do as well across all areas.
This is a surprisingly big factor: we get bitumen from refining crude oil whether we want it or not, and the endless demand for the lighter fractions of crude means we're gonna do a lot of refining regardless, so the market had to find something to do with the left-over sludge.
Also pushing the price down, asphalt is almost completely recyclable: when a worn-out road surface finally gets dug up & replaced, the old asphalt doesn't go to landfill - it can be crushed up, melted down, and re-layed somewhere else. So much of the demand doesn't actually much reduce the amount on the market.
Compare to, say, concrete: we don't make concrete unless we want concrete, it's not a byproduct of an otherwise-useful process; and once you dig it up, you can only re-use it as ugly gravel, you can't turn it back into fresh concrete.
Because crappy, like poverty is relative and very much subjective.
I'd rather increase road standards and accelerate the evolution of self-driving technology than require the development of technology that is capable of driving on today's terrible roads. I know this is not a binary choice -- realistically, both would happen. But I don't think anyone's even talking about better roads for self-driving cars. If even just major roads had to be maintained to a minimally machine-readable standard, it would be a good thing for drivers -- whether human or machine.
Fascinating:
Nichols said the AMIR “has great potential” to extend
the life of roads, and “save significant taxpayer
dollars.” In 2016, an MTO analysis found that the
province would save $50 million annually if roads on the
MTOs highways could last even one year longer.
"The MTO is not planning on buying or specifying the use
of AMIR asphalt rollers..."
Might be of interest, too: http://www.dykespaving.com/blog/why-use-asphalt-instead-of-c...Florida native, I can tell you this is very temporary. Big chunks will eventually come up and you can see the previous pavement underneath. I'm assuming that between the heat here and the cracks mentioned in the original article that let water seep between the layers, this is just a bad way to fix a road.
I can't recall ever seeing a runway shutdown abd inoperable for months on end due to "road work". I can think of a few reasons around why this isn't a thing, most of them being human factor (no money on building something I won't get paid again to fix later). The only "true" reason I can fathom is that runways are much more expensive to build. Order(s?) of magnitude more expensive.
Am I way off the mark, or is there something I've clearly missed?
I’m guessing you haven’t flown through Phoenix recently? They have had a runway closed for repaving (might be reopened now) since early January.
Runways are generally concrete rather than asphalt and there are plenty of concrete highways. It tends to be a louder and less comfortable surface to drive on and when repairs do need to happen, they’re more disruptive than a simple asphalt resurfacing. I’m sure there are other reasons to prefer asphalt, but I’m not a civil engineer.
That particular runway was poured in the late 50s or early 60s, and last had major work in the 90s. So it happens, just not on the every-two-or-three-years schedule that it does for roads (or yearly, depending on where you are).
The obvious difference, at least around here, is that runways are made of concrete - lots of it, each batch truckload tested as it is poured (slump tests, anyway), while roads are made from asphalt, as little of it as the DoT will allow, and as far as I can tell, zero quality control testing.
What's wrong with much of traditional education summed up in one sentence.
And as somebody else mentioned he can't force others to use his technology.
Nope, literal holes in literal roads.