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Comment by meri_dian | Hacker News Reader

Unfortunately antisemitism in Europe has a long and dark history, the Holocaust only being the most vivid and recent eruption of anti semitic emotions.

On a related note, it's odd to me how people are so vociferously anti-Israel in Europe.

Can't they see that the Jews were treated as second class citizens on what had been their ancestral homelands for over a millennia following the original spread of Islam? This being the case, the creation of Israel is amends for the sustained history of Jewish oppression and displacement in the Middle East.

Willfully ignoring this seems like a choice motivated by latent bias against the Jews more than anything else.

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So because of events a thousand years ago the Israelis should be immune from criticism? Give me a break. Israel is an apartheid state and sensible people don't like that. And the right of "ancestral homeland" should be respected for Israelis, but not Europeans? etc.

In a rational society, any and all groups as valid targets for fair criticism. It doesn't mean that racists/reactionaries get a free pass, but it does mean that nobody gets special treatment.

No one is saying the Jews should get a free pass for anything they do.

Just that Israel seems like a very small reparation to pay for centuries of oppression.

Israel is a far, far less "apartheid" nation than other middle eastern nations. So why does Israel get all the hate? Because of latent anti-Semitic beliefs in society, which is the point of my post.

>Just that Israel seems like a very small reparation to pay for centuries of oppression.

easy to say when it's not your family that loses their land and lives in an open-air prison

Easy to picture when you compare land mass sizes.

The point of Israel is no one wants the Jews. Europe doesn’t want them. Russia doesn’t want them. The middle east sure as shit doesn’t want them. The US tolerates them.

Let that sink in.

"Let that sink in" isn't an argument, and it especially isn't an argument that justifies apartheid.

Nobody in Europe is saying Israel shouldn't exist, just that it should be held to modern western moral standards and accountability with regards to human rights.

By those modern standards, they’re already doing better than the US and UK for example. They didn’t invade Afghanistan and Iraq, they didn’t destabilize Libya, and they don’t have a secret program of drone killings all over the world.

Lose the apartheid nonsense too, you’re insulting the Israelis, and the South Africans who suffered under the real deal.

"I know you are, but what I am I" doesn't excuse Israel for its crimes. The US isn't excused either - that's the whole point I'm making: no special treatment.

And yes, Israel does have a drone assassination program - that's where the US got the idea for theirs. The US Hunter and Pioneer UAV systems are direct derivatives of Israeli models, etc.

...just that it should be held to modern western moral standards and accountability with regards to human rights..

You remember posting that, right?

Israel does have a drone assassination program - that's where the US got the idea for theirs. The US Hunter and Pioneer UAV systems are direct derivatives of Israeli models, etc.

Citations for that?

The crimes of the US don't excuse the crimes of Israel. I don't know why that's so hard for some people to grasp.

Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_combat_aerial_vehicle...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Use_by_Israel

https://www.army-technology.com/features/featureuav-evolutio...

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582099085/journalist-details-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killings_by_Israel_De...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/books/review-rise-and-kil...

“Since World War II, Israel has assassinated more people than any other country in the Western world.”

Maybe if you were surrounded by people who want to kill you and refuse to accept your legitimacy as a nation, and are subject to constant violence and harassment you would understand why the Israelis are a bit defensive.

Please stop using the word apartheid, you're abusing the term.

Israel's actions are sometimes immoral and unjust (and to be fair, so are some of the steps the Palestinians occasionally take, especially Hamas) but it certainly is incredibly far from being apartheid.

It's a widely used and accepted analogy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analo..., including by the former president of the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid

I am neutral in the Israel vs Palestine debate...I think. At least, as neutral as you can be. And I find it ridiculous that Israel can try to claim jerusalem for itself, a ground that is considered equally sacred by every religion of the book (christianity/judaeism/islam).

Frankly I feel all religions of the book are ridiculous and we’d be better off if nobody had claim to the holy land. But ofc that will never happen.

I wonder how many people are anti-Israel because of the new settlements they keep on building in East Jerusalem? They are doing so despite broad condemnation.

Yeah, many people condemn all of Israel. I guess they should just pack it up an call it a day...

The Jews have tried for decades to make peace. They've received rockets and hatred in response. They're fed up, and rightfully so.

This will be absurdly political if we go on but please try to have an empathy a bit.

Arabs have been there since centuries, some well planned religious migrations happened in last 100 years and then we have this mess. Why can't we go back to UN plan and call it a day ?

I do have empathy. The nations surrounding Israel unfortunately do not.

If they decided to convene a summit tomorrow and say "we accept the existence of Israel" instead of their hateful rhetoric that they want to see Israel wiped off the map, the entire problem would be solved.

The victim blaming here is deplorable. The Arabs refuse to accept a Jewish Homeland. Hence the wars, hence the sustained conflict.

>>I do have empathy. The nations surrounding Israel unfortunately do not.

Some intellectual honesty please? The two nations with the largest land border with Israel I.e Jordan and Egypt both recognize and have diplomatic relations with Israel.

>>The Arabs refuse to accept a Jewish Homeland

The question is a Jewish Homeland under what borders? The problem with Israel is that it was never ever content within it's borders. That was adequately demonstrated 7 years after it's independence when it invaded Egypt in 1956 to annex Sinai and double its territory. If not for Eisenhower putting sense into Ben Gurion.[1] The Arabs are right fully scared to recognize any entity that has no intention to define its final borders and keeps annexing land outside the UN plan. The Israeli claim of being "provoked" into capturing land also doesn't hold any water as the Sinai campaign of 1956 shows.

[1]https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-how-israel-gave...

I have never found it all that difficult the separate people who are Anti-Isreali government from those who are Anti-Jewish people during conversations. However, it seems those on both edges attempt to leverage that ambiguity to their own devices.

Is it really that difficult for people in modern society to induce and identify the difference between nuanced beliefs and tacit/coded bigotry?

You know that there are Jews who don’t believe the state of Israel should presently exist, right?

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ultra-orthodox-anti...

That doesn't contradict what he said at all, in fact it isn't even really surprising.

Opposition to specific Israeli policies is no different from opposition to specific policies of any country. Being “anti-Israel”—I.e. anti- an entire country whose national identity is founded in Jewishness—is pretty damn close to anti-Semitism. Support of terrorist groups like Hamas or Hezbollah who seek to exterminate Jews is essentially anti-Semitism.

It’s considered racist to be “anti-“ any other country. If you went around being anti-Zimbabwe people would call you a racist, even though Zimbabwe has, by all accounts, an extremely shitty government.

> Opposition to specific Israeli policies is no different from opposition to specific policies of any country. Being “anti-Israel”—I.e. anti- an entire country whose national identity is founded in Jewishness—is pretty damn close to anti-Semitism.

You see, in this particular case things are a bit different, because what Israel is doing in Palestine has become one of its core policies in spite of condemnation from the international community (and many Israelis too, by the way), and it's been like this for decades.

It’s not that latent, it just got a little quiet after WWII, but it’s been roaring back to life for years now.

And has millions of votes, if you look at the British Labour Party.

You are really saying people vote labour because of anti jewish bias?

I think most people don't have an opinion about Jews one way or another.

Most of the antisemtic people I've met are into conspiracy theories, and they seem to be evenly split between right and left.

Perhaps you are unaware of the recent issues around Corbyn and Momentum?

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