Islamic culture did preserve some of the old Greek scholarship, but real science didn't get started until after their Golden age was past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna
Etc.
We who've read our history form western sources just aren't generally aware of them because we usually write the names of the most famous ones in latin form (e.g. Avicenna).
It's fascinating to see the interplay of science from different geographies - that Al-Kindi started by learning and translating Greek science and then that we primarily know him through others translation of his works to Latin. Al-Kwarizmi is a well known name in the West from the same Persian scientific community (I think he was perhaps head of the House of Wisdom whilst Al-Kindi was there).
a) Scientists came from a wide variety of backgrounds, but were usually of Muslim faith. For example, the term "Middle East" would not be accurate since many scholars were Persian and West Asian.
b) Scholars were typically funded by patrons who were associated with the Muslim empire/caliphate.
c) To a lesser extent, many of the prominent scholars first learned Islamic science and philosophy -- typically at a young age -- before delving into the natural sciences.
Wikipedia mentions scientists who were historically - and are elsewhere - known for their Christian faith, priests and such but without mentioning that they were Christian believers but with scientists who were living in Islamic countries [I don't know the history to know if they, for example were Imams or wrote religious treatise] they're flagged as Muslims. Copernicus/Kepler/Brahe [I didn't check further] aren't claimed to be Christian, Al-Kindi is claimed in the first sentence as a Muslim amongst Muslim scholars, in a Muslim World, etc..
Any input on historic differences, IYO, that lead to these different characterisations?
Islam on the other hand is not a religion concerned with changing the existing order - its founder was not a martyred revolutionary but a successful political entity. Where Christianity advocates separation of church and state, Islam sets forward a system for religious governance.
Therefore, while both Christian and Islamic scholars generally got their education in their respective religious traditions, I think Christian scholars were seen as breaking with the past in part because that kind of behavior is celebrated in Christianity, while Islamic scholars were seen as being involved in their political processes because that is celebrated in Islam.
This is a hugely low-church protestant viewpoint. That 'monarchic system' you refer to was indeed intended to be the administration of the 'just order' which was founded by the 'revolutionary figure' of Jesus. Just because the protestants viewed the western Christian regime as corrupt, doesn't mean it wasn't at least philosophically aligned with such a viewpoint (see also "Holy Roman Empire", etc.). And although the reformers are happy to paint those adhering to this regieme as non-christian, it doesn't mean they actually were not so (either in reality or philosopically, according to ones analysis)
> Islam on the other hand is not a religion concerned with changing the existing order
Isn't a major tenet of islam restoring the people of god from the apostasy of the jews and of christians, etc?
> Where Christianity advocates separation of church and state,
Again, hugely post-enlightenment protestant viewpoint. Non-protestant Christianity, not just in the west under the roman pontiff (again, holy roman empire), but everywhere that it was not dominated by the islamic conquest viewed church and state as two distinct entities administering to the two different aspects of a single society (spiritual and temporal) in concert (see also 'holy russia', etc).
Mostly disagree with this characterization of christianity. Christianity was first a small cultish endeavour amalgamizing judaistic and greek cultures. Then it suddenly replaced roman state religion, with church fathers taking strong political leadership within the religions domain. The roman state religion was always a part of keeping the empire in cohesion. This same political intent was laid onto christianity.
So, where Islam gained prominence as the administrative creed of an arabian trade town, christianity rose to prominence as part of the administrative structure of an empire.
Only after a millenia protestants started to question the papal authority. Martin Luther and his ideas survived because the german princes wanted to undermine catholic churches authority. While definetly NOT toppling their own. Luther was vehemently anti-revolutionary, saying rebelious peasants should be severely punished.
Most flavors of christianity are not about toppling old regimes but supporting them. The rebelious sects like the huguenots were vehemently persecuted.
The more rebellious sects only started thriving in the american colonies.
Religions have two aspects - the literary context, and the context of the religion as it is practiced. When we look at these combined, Christianity at the large is a religion that supports and co-exists with the existing power structure rather than is overtly "rebellious". In the historical, and the modern context both. With the exception of North America and various evangelical sects spread through the globe.
To my understanding, in Islam the literary and the practical context match pretty well, as Quran was written as a sort of mystical field manual of administration and religious practice, in a very specific political situation. While the ideas expressed in the text are partly ancient, the body of work itself is only as old as the religion [0]. I agree up to a point - Islam is more like an administrators device than Christianity.
Christianity, on the other hand, in its' holy book combines a selected collection of ancient Judaistic texts with the content of the new testament. The tradition of religious practice evolved only after the texts were compiled [1] - which was upheld to be critical part of the religion for a millenia. Protestants seemingly denied the importance of tradition but actually just replaced it with their own culture of practice [2].
As for the protestants' "rebellious nature" - that really wasn't. Unless protestantianism existed harmoniously with the existing power structrure it was crushed. One of the culminations of this tension was the 30 years war [3].
Yes, the ideas of protestantianism rose from deep conviction and the moral impetus to overthrow old concepts. But practically it could only succeed when it co-existed and co-operated with the earthly power structure. (Hence, we get the protestant state churches in various countries [4].)
Or it could escape the old society all together ... to the new world.
Christianity in the North-America is quite a different thing than as practiced in the old world. The various sects that were persecuted in europe found home there and could thrive in relative freedom.
The critical part about this is that there was no state church. You could choose your religious community based on your conscience. Hence, I presume the evangelical aspects of Christianity can be more highlighed there. A considerable portion of the progenitors of North American christianity were the rebels, with no deep ties to the political power structure.
In Europe, the Church and the State ruled hand in hand for over a millenia, and only now this co-operation is starting to fragment. First the Catholic church with it's blood ties to the aristocracy, and then the protestant state churches herded the masses.
Especially in the first millenia, to large extent the church and state officers came from the same families. First sons of noble houses inherited the land, while the some of the later sons became priests. The main reason for the vows of selibacy was to stop a secondary church-based hereditary power structure from rising next to the feudal aristocracy.
"Resemblance to Hellenistic cults are superficial."
I was mainly referring to the philosophical and literary content of the new testament as it matches fairly well with the ethics of the greek philosophers.
As for the mystical content - I would claim the resemblance to older non-judaistic tradition is far deeper than superficial. For example for the worship of Virgin Mary, the image of the mother goddess was already powerfull and ancient [4]. I know later theologians integrated Mary to the church canon but I presume this was only after she was popular with the masses.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#Compilation
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_tradition
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#Established_chu...
The aping of Greek mystical forms such as virgin worship I believe is a ploy to make the religion more palatable to the surrounding culture. The deeper principles of total forgiveness and relinquishing of individual claims to righteousness are the core, in my view; if not globally unique, at least a radical departure from classical cultural values and Islam.
The more people respect and believe you, the more political force you can amass. Hence, a popular religion weilds quite a lot of political force. As such it would be totally misguided to pretend this political context would not exist, or worse, use it in catastrophic ways. There's a good reason churches did not approve of heretics when people were uneducated and easy to arouse into a mass hysteria. There's also a good reason to co-operate with the state so that the political interest of the church and the state are aligned - as opposing large political factions have an almost natural tendency to create turmoil and chaos, like hydrogen and oxygen, even if their leaders werent terribly ambitious (there are always easily exitable factions on both sides).
The fact that bible survives, and is at it is, for example, is the result of a political process as much as anything else. Thus the interpretations as well are mostly done within a political context.
I agree from the philosophical point of view - "meek shall inherit the earth" is pretty much as revolutionary concept as it can get - but from practical point of view this has most of the time meant that you must meakly obey your landlord.
If we understand revolution as a practical political concept - I don't think there has been much revolutionary about christianity en masse, as I wrote in my previous reply.
I think for the most parts the historical inheritance of christianity is net positive, especially when we get to the literary tradition spurred by protestantianism.
"The deeper principles of total forgiveness and relinquishing of individual claims to righteousness are the core, in my view; if not globally unique"
I might be totally off base, but I understood one could claim those principles to be at the core buddhism as well.
Given that the philosophical basis of science had deep roots in both pagan and muslim thought I'm not sure if that's a completely sensible assessment.
I think one needs to take a larger view of the society as a whole, to try to find answers to why science rose, when it did.
Christianity, as a body, does not do this. Christianity, until very recently, has usually—whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant—either been or sought to be established, and even in places where separation of church and state is established principle of civil law large bbodiesof Christianity often fairly overtly rejects that separation except to the extent it is being applied to protect their community from the dictate of a government inclined towards other preferences.
Sometimes, sometimes not. Clearly not the case in late imperial Russia, or in the Papal States, or in much of pre-Gregorian western Christianity where local bishops were effectively appointed by and subordinate to local lay rulers, etc.
Not OP, but I wouldn't be so sure the differences aren't a result of characterizations both originating in the west.. Our dominant philosophical lens (enlightenment rationalism) tends to downplay any religious belief within science as something 'cultural', etc - therefore Kepler, etc, were not 'christian' in anything other than a historical footnote.. since these 'islamic scientists' were outside of the western scientific lineage, they were labelled accordingly - and we can't label 'our own' lineage as 'christian' since it would be to some extent anti-enlightenment to do so (after all it was the church which 'held back' science in the enlightenment view)...
A good introductory to this and the history of western science is Bill Bryson’s ‘a brief history of everything’and the one he edited on the Royal Society.
Some of course were deeply religious, it I think it’s correct to treat their Christianity as incidental. I dont know if it’s the same with the ‘islamic’ scholars. I’d like to think so and I’d like to know more about them.
Anyone recommend any laymen focused books on Islamic scholarship in antiquity?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg_(Burg)
> Da er zu wenig Geld für den Bau der Burg hatte, bat Radbot seinen Bruder, Bischof Werner von Strassburg, um Unterstützung
> Because of insufficient funds to construct the castle, Radbot begged his brother, Bischop Werner of Strassburg for support.
Whether or not that's a legend, it was not unbelievable, which is the whole point.
That castle was situated at an impasse of a river, where they likely extorted money, I mean "took taxes". The rest is convoluted history. I guess you heard the name.
A cursory visit to Wikipedia reveals a good list of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age