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This isn't the first time I've seen this sentiment on HN, unfortunately. Some people seem to think it's just part of life to make false claims to investors, especially if you really, really believe you can succeed once you have enough cash.

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Assuming you don't know something to be definitely false, and you really really hope it works, is that the same as lying? I'm seriously asking in the context of your comment. People raise investor money all the time on the promise of hope. Does that make these people criminals? (Obviously if you 100% know it to be false, it's a lie, but the context of your comment is not definitely knowing it's false, but instead really really hoping it works)

I think Theranos' case is more like: If you really really hope something will work, but you know it does not work now, is it lying to say "it works"?

Yes, it is.

Agreed. This isn't like a typical silicon valley startup which is hoping that their business becomes profitable once it reaches scale. This is our product does not work to the specifics required by the federal government but we sold it to consumers anyways.

Well I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that if you want to raise money on "promise of hope" as you said (which I'd imagine could be the majority of startups), you just need to represent yourself that way. The way I see it, it breaks into 3 camps:

#1: Saying you can do something you know you can't do #2: Saying you can do something you think or hope you can do #3: Saying you can do something you know you can do

While there is a human behavior difference between #1 and #2, you're still misleading your investors, right? Like I said, IANAL, so I can't say whether or not it constitutes fraud, but it is still dishonest IMO.

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