When the subject of Africa comes up, it has been the long and disastrous habit to look at every variable, any variable, except the obvious ones: The differences between people.
Now, here we are saying, "There are examples of successful Africans that we can use as models for the whole continent, for example...such-and-such a white person." It makes people feel good to have proven that Africans are equal to Europeans through such a method, but it is a rather bold absurdity. Not to mention statistically meaningless. Not to mention a bit insulting to the indigenous people.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=174987
...where exactly is the racism in that? Lots of people upmodded his ad hominem [1] attack on it, but I frankly can't sleuth out anything that would be considered "racist" even by the most liberal of PC standards. Maybe it's time everyone sat back and [just a suggestion] used our brains?
[1] For the forgetful: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
You've made the case that the reason that Mark Shuttleworth can't be African is because of his color. But African-ness is not a skin color, it's an issue of identity. For instance, I consider myself "American", though I neither live in America nor am I Native American. You then backed that up with a terrible analogy about different kinds of animals. You then extended that to say that because he's white, he can't serve as a roll-model for other people from the same place that he's from.
Is there a difference between black and white communities in South Africa? Of course. Might one of those be at an advantage in the business community? Naturally, given the recent emergence from apartheid in the last couple of decades. Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism.
If you look at world history you notice quite quickly that cultures wax and wane in their world political / economic influence. It's only been a few hundred years since northern europe was a complete backwater and classical arab culture was the center of learnedness around that part of the world. The middle east is a mess these days. What changed? Did white people steal the "rule the world" gene? Of course not.
Appropriately, "Ubuntu", is the African concept of unity of all peoples and races. It is no accident that Mark chose that name for the project. For you to come along and claim that he has no right to his identity because he's what you think is the wrong color for an African is pretty wonky.
1) He's in Africa's richest country.
2) His parents weren't peasants or slaves or absent (as far as I know).
3) He's not Bantu, not Zulu, not a Bushman. He's of English stock.
Whatever importance you might attach to these or other variables, the guy is not a representative African, and his circumstances can't be used to make claims about the whole.
Is that genetic? No. Fucking. Way. Implying that it is is the essence of racism.
Eh. Lots of things are genetic, including the composition of the brain. It isn't necessary to obsess over the particulars, but to make a categorical denial of obvious facts is the essence of brainwashing.
What point exactly are you trying to make?
You might want to read "Guns, Germs and Steel" for another perspective on human history.
The trouble, as always, is reductionism: One side saying, "This is the one-and-only reason."
Page 1: it has been the long and disastrous habit to look at every variable, any variable, except the obvious ones: The differences between people.
!logically_coherent
Agreed, of course.
Genetic differences count for nothing
Of course not.
We cannot account for the contributory factors nor quantify them, and we cannot quantify for the interplay between the two since there is not a 1-to-1 correspondence due to feedback effects. Nor can we accurately quantify the genetic contribution in the first place.
when they are well-known to count for a tremendous amount
By what amount under what circumstances for a given individual and situation?
It depends. Some things are discrete (eg, genetic diseases like huntington's). Most things are on a continuum--there's no IQ gene, for instance. I suspect that, in a rough way, almost every non-junk aspect of the human genome has some effect on intelligence, large or small.
The best tests are perhaps still separated twin studies. Identical DNA + different environments makes for a convenient way to quantify the genetic influence of characteristics...
Of course, once genetic engineering is in full bloom, all of this will be quite non-controversial.
That is simply not true - exactly the opposite is the problem.
Also, what differences between people would you name as accounting factors?
I will read "The Blank Slate" - I have been meaning to read another one of Pinker's books for ages.
Obviously, there are genetic differences between people. Their effect is another question. Also, the environment is involved in computing the phenotype from the gene. So one and the same gene could produce stupid people in one environment, and in another one smart people (as an example).
I haven't read the book yet, but perhaps you can provide some really compelling evidence for genes (of a "race") making a difference. True, pygmies probably won't make great basketballers, but that is not the kind of example we are looking for, or is it?
Typically sports is being mentioned in that context, but I don't think it is a very compelling example (safe for the pygmies example). It might just as well be percentages of people choosing to take up sports, for whatever reasons (like maybe, because it offers them the best opportunities).
I read it awhile back, and while there are some stretches in his usage of evolution to explain every form of behavior, e.g., people sat around fires for millenia therefore storytelling ability evolved, his explanations concerning adaptations for general survival utility are well supported.
I would recommend reading it with a grain of salt, and take evolutionary psychology for what it is, with the same level of skepticism you would apply to get data from any social "science".
EDIT--Some suggestive guideposts when reading in this field: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003817.html
http://itb.biologie.hu-berlin.de/~hagen/papers/Controversies... http://www.badscience.net/?p=518
Be on the lookout for handwaving, but certainly investigate. Don't make it the only book you read in this area...
I've read "How the Mind Works" before and really liked it, so I have good expectations of Pinker. But in general, that kind of use of evolution theory is really tiresome. No matter what you want to "prove", you can always make up a story and then tag it with "therefore xyz evolved".
2) His parents weren't peasants or slaves or absent (as far as I know).
3) He's not Bantu, not Zulu, not a Bushman. He's of English stock.
Whatever importance you might attach to these or other variables, the guy is not a representative African
Yes, he must be a mynameishere, given all the above, no?
Giving something a nasty name isn't enough to prove that it's wrong. You have to actually refute it.
> Did white people steal the "rule the world" gene? Of course not.
Do you remember Biology 101? Populations change over time. Why are other species capable of evolving, but humans not?
I'm not saying that genetics are the explanation for this change, but again, if you're going to deny the possibility you have to actually provide some evidence.
In your atheism example, you're correct. And the term racism is emotive; it's something that most people don't want to be even if the common definition describes their view. Assuming some races to be genetically inferior is what many would term racism. But what if it's true?
So, that brings me to the second part of your question. There are a lot of angles to look at this from, so I'll just pick the couple that are most important to me.
Let's start with history of dominant world civilizations. I'll pick an easy example: The Arab world. It was dominant intellectually, militarily and culturally in the European dark ages. Italian culture had fallen from dominance to backwardness in about the same time frame. If we're to assume that the critical factor was genetic, and that Europeans had a genetic change in that period that affected the whole of Europe, which in its rise had very little genetic cross-polination, you would need nigh-on miraculous perfection in genetic propagation for the whole of the population of Northern Europe to receive that gene in a couple hundred years. Simultaneously, you would need the whole of the Arab population to devolve.
If the thesis were that some families have a higher disposition to intelligence, that becomes very defensible. On the scale of populations of entire continents consisting of millions of individuals spread out over thousands of kilometers in largely distinct gene pools, it's virtually impossible.
You might be able to salvage an argument for there being just enough evolution in certain ruling families for it to tip the scales, but that's not very convincing to me, and doesn't leave you with the "differences between people" result either.
To be clear, I'm not saying that some ethnic groups may not have be genetically predisposed to certain physical or mental capabilities, but that those differences are not significant enough to explain the political tides of human history.
The less scientific part of my argument comes from experience. What are the most important factors in being successful in business? Drive? Connections? Understanding of markets? There are a lot of things, but most of them are en-cultured values. I've traveled through Africa, stayed with families, and met a lot of rather intelligent people. Many of them were still poor. The difference between me and them wasn't that they had The Dumb African Gene, but that I was born into a upper-middle-class family in the United States, and they were born into blue-collar families in Zimbabwe. My extended family also has some adopted members that are black. They most likely came from poor parents. They turned out about like the rest of us, went to the same colleges, grad schools, got good jobs and so on. Could they have had genetically weaker genes than the rest of us? Maybe, but that didn't seem to be terribly important to their level of societal integration.
It's pretty seductive to be able to think of the world's socio-economic problems in terms of genetic disposition; it makes us feel like our politics and policies don't play a decisive role and that our civilization is secured forever in its greatness. For me at least, history and experience do not concur.
In any event, I appreciate your taking the time to substantiate your claims. Doing so helps keep the quality of discussion here high.
Suppose you meet an American, who happens to look Chinese. Are you going to tell him he's a "pretty peculiar-looking American"?
Hard to understand? I didn't think so, but maybe.