Hacker News Reader

Comment by phil248 | Hacker News Reader

I'm sorry, but are people actually more concerned with the sound of the keyboard than the arrow keys?

It took me a week to get used to the sound. Six months in and I still can't reliably hit the arrow keys. It's as if they're designed to be as difficult as possible.

View on HN

I tried using Sugru to fix the arrow keys on the Magic Keyboard, which is otherwise a surprisingly great keyboard: https://imgur.com/a/ntHf1xJ

I just hate that in 2018 I have to do such a stupid thing to a new computer from what's supposed to be a premium computer hardware company.

Apple users have enjoyed the perfect keyboard layout for 15+ years, only for some idiot manager to come along and change the layout for brainless aesthetic reasons. It's infuriating because the change is so unnecessary.

I won't buy or accept another Apple laptop until they go back to the old layout.

Put a bit of tape on the bottom half of the left and right keys if you need some tactile guidance and have old muscle memory. I do this on all my keyboards (my daily driver is a Microsoft sculpt) and it helps immensely with finding the correct key. Arrow keys in particular are just distant enough from default position to need that extra bit of tactile feedback.

Thank you for this tip! Will try it tomorrow.

On other keyboards, I’ve used a drop of CA glue (superglue) to add tactile feedback. Much like some keyboards have a bump on two of the home row keys

Clear nail polish works too. It's also a good makeshift loctite for tiny screws.

Never heard of this. Interesting.

Yeah, I worked at an optical lab to pay for college. We'd have customers come in with screws that wouldn't stay in so we'd use clear nail polish. I'm sure for some uses, loctite would be better, but nail polish does very good. We'd also use it on metal temple pieces when someone's facial oils had done a number on it. We'd buff the pieces smooth and coat with clear nail polish. Not a perfect fix, but would get someone who could afford new glasses by for a while longer.

You can also try these tactile dots. They are the absolute best. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NEUIQFO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_...

Ooh, yes, I hate the new arrow keys. The inverted-T arrangement was great for positioning your fingers without looking down, since you could use the empty space to orient yourself.

I haven't used the new keyboard. Can't you still detect the arrow keys by feeling for the split between up/down?

It really is not the same. Also, the up/down being squished to half their normal height makes things more difficult. In other words, there is just a lot less room for error, now..

The up/down arrow keys are sized as they were before. It's the left/right arrow keys that have grown to be twice their normal height.

On the magic keyboard, the whole bottom row of keys is shorter than they used to be. Not by a lot, but they're shorter. They're now the same height as the keys above.

You really can't.

Even on the Apple's new desktop keyboards, the split between the up/down keys is much smaller and much more difficult to detect than their older keyboards. It's much worse on the laptop keyboards.

And because the left and right arrow keys are now full height, it is literally impossible to determine if your middle finger is over the up/down keys or over the shift/up keys. And if your hand is in the wrong spot, nothing works.

As someone who writes code, it is hugely frustrating and it slows me down to the point that I now avoid writing code on Apple's laptops whenever possible.

The number of times I've been frustratingly pounding on up arrow only to finally look and discover that I'm hitting shift is astronomical. I'm coming up on 2 years with this keyboard and I still cannot reliably use the arrows without looking.

I haven't used the brand new Macbook that was just announced, but I have a 2 month old Macbook with the butterfly keyboard, and the arrow keys are fine... you can clearly feel the gap between the up/down arrows and you can either hit them separately or put your finger in the middle and rock back and forth.

The touch bar fake Escape key is more of an issue for me.

Arrow keys and Keys getting stuck are biggest problems with the MBP. First time I used the keyboard, I had trouble inputting password and had to start using an extension instead. Now I have trouble inputting the long char master password. And still can’t hit arrow keys reliably after six months with this thing.

Hopefully Touch ID fixes the issue with having to enter a long password?

I know it's not a huge deal but touch id is less secure than a good password, so it's not a complete solution. You also can't use touch id in all circumstances... It's actually quite inconsistent in that regard.

I've been completely underwhelmed by the touch ID on my MBP. Faster just to type every time, or unlock with my watch

The watch is usually how I unlock my computer, but I'm surprised to hear you're underwhelmed by touch ID, as in my experience the touch ID is very accurate and quite fast (and I use it multiple times a day for authorization of things, especially unlocking 1Password).

It seems finicky. If I press straight down and line up carefully, it works. I've tried retraining but at this point I'm kind of done with it.

I guess one kinda important difference is that you can see how bad the up/down arrows are going to be before you buy it.

Nobody predicted the failure rate.

That MFing up arrow key on mine is an asshole.

I'm used to it now but they are quite loud when you sit in a quiet space. I've noticed a few stares my way when hammering away on the keyboard.

Totally with you on the arrow keys. I absolutely hate those and I still hit the down arrow around 50% of the times I aim for the up arrow.

I still have inverted-T arrows on my keyboard, but, I'm curious if you think it's more the new reality vs muscle memory mismatch, or a fundamental design flaw? Would children growing up only with flush full size r/l & half size u/d arrow keys find them vexing? Would they prefer inverted-T?

The types of keyboards I've cycled through in my life between various VAX, DEC, C64, Apple 2e, PC, ergonomic keyboards, laptops, I seem to adapt without really noticing. I look forward to seeing if I am flummoxed by the new arrow key layout, as much as I am by the constantly shrinking iOS onscreen shift keys.

I "grew up with" both styles, and I prefer inverted T much more. I used to consider full height left/right arrow keys one of the little things that would annoy me on the laptops that had them.

My wife's keyboard drives me nuts. Mine is silent. Her keyboard is like stampeding cattle.

I haven't used arrow keys on my Mac that I can recall.

YMMV, but many people get used to the arrow keys when they spend enough time on it. Personally I dislike it.

But the keyboard is just horrible, compared to any ThinkPad X/T. There's no reason a $900B company can't make a great keyboard, except a culture of letting designers get away with sacrificing function for thinness and form.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com