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Comment by taurath | Hacker News Reader

Schedule 1 is clearly rediculous. I honestly think we need these powerful tools in therapeutic settings especially for addiction which is carving swathes through entire generations. I know multiple people who’ve gotten the ability and drive to grow past alcoholism using them, one can only hope it could be a tool for opiate addiction. Benefits for PTSD and traumatic experiences are practically proven at this point with MDMA.

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As a counterpoint, I know multiple people who became insane after trying LSD.

I believe this comment as far as I can metaphorically throw it, which is to say not at all, because you can't throw comments.

This is the "my uncle works at Nintendo" of psychedelics.

I'll give you they weren't the brightest bulbs to begin with.

"This is the "my uncle works at Nintendo" of psychedelics."

This thread is a long and predictably basic discussion on a topic that I think has been beaten to death. Your comment, however, made reading the thread worthwhile.

More often than not, those people have previous mental health problems and LSD throws them over the edge. Sometimes the trigger is a getting your head hit, sometimes receiving a prize, sometimes getting dumped, sometimes after giving birth.

At the end of the day you don't see any correlation between psychedelic usage and mental health issues, same as with the examples I gave. LSD is an emotional earthquake, and should be treated as such.

Of course there's a correlation. You've just described one of the causes yourself. Giving people very focused nudges in precisely the wrong direction is absolutely a terrible and serious effect.

Many people live their life on the edge without ever falling off. Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example.

There's no correlation, it can be a trigger, like giving birth can be a trigger. Let's make breeding illegal?

There is a correlation between people who develop serious mental illness and people who take LSD. The effect you are describing guarantees this (under very weak and sensible assumptions).

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_health.shtml

It apparently can bring out already dormant mental illnesses but is not in any way associated with the formation of new mental illnesses.

We all know LSD was literally available _at the pharmacy_ in the USA up until the mid 60s right? The entire nation didn't go insane... And you can bet your ass a pharmacy will at least ID people trying to buy it, you'll know exactly how much you're getting, and there could probably even be an information packet to go with it. Currently if you want it you have to risk persecution, have no idea what strength of dose you'll be receiving, and there's definitely no information packet unless you look it up yourself.

At the end of the day criminalization is causing more harm than it's solving. People have issues with all sorts of things, alcohol is a lot more negative but totally legal.

In general the proper tact is to ensure access to healthcare and opportunities in our society. Then those with dormant or non dormant mental illnesses are more likely to receive the attention they deserve. Access to opportunities means people get involved in their communities and projects and become passionate about something and are less likely to abuse drugs overall.

Or you can spread hogwash like "LSD makes ya insane" which is not directly what you said but how people will read it.

> It apparently can bring out already dormant mental illnesses but is not in any way associated with the formation of new mental illnesses.

The victim does not know in advance.

The victim does not care afterwards because the result is the same.

And how is he so confident it doesn't "form new illnesses," whatever that might mean?

Like I've mentioned upthread, I've known a number of people who have clearly suffered from having tried LSD. Some of them will admit it was the worst decision they've ever made. Others will deny it, strongly encourage you to try it, and if you press them for how it might help you exactly they cannot explain, but there is a glimmer of anxiety and recognition that it changed them deeply in ways they are not comfortable with. And they want you to join them.

It's very chilling. It reminds me of how you'll see in some gay communities when someone contracts HIV they will compulsively spread it to as many people as possible.

> It's very chilling. It reminds me of how you'll see in some gay communities when someone contracts HIV they will compulsively spread it to as many people as possible.

Do you have a source for this?

Your claim seems like a very broad and negative generalizatuon of an entire group of diverse people, who are often marginalized.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing#References

Sure, and the victim of a car crash doesn't know this taxi ride is going to be the one that kills them. The victim of Pneumonia doesn't know they contracted it in that one supermarket.

Lettuce sometimes carries ecoli bacteria and spreads outbreaks amongst tens or hundreds of people at once. Should we ban lettuce too?

And, I dunno what people you hang out with, but most people I've met are pretty hesitant to just shove hard drugs into their bodies. It's not like everyone would be forced to eat LSD if it became legal tomorrow.

And I know plenty of people who've had bad trips (and many many more that have not) and none of them have gone insane or become mentally ill afterwards. I mean, just look at a concert like Woodstock for instance. Half a million people in attendance, huge counter culture movement, and shit tons of LSD. Look at Burning Man, there are drug overdoses, but they don't appear to be caused by LSD as searches for LSD overdose yield exactly zero relevant results.

I just think perhaps you've been told LSD is bad your whole life when, really, it's not that bad. Take it with care. Don't go dropping tabs when you haven't done your research. But the literal vast vast vast majority of people who take it are fine, and many report it being a positive life changing experience for them.

Not really, because if there's no LSD there will be another trigger. People are sane forever or eventually have breakdowns, very very few people live on the edge, that's why it's impossible to draw a correlation out of the data.

Neither people nor LSD is as gentle as you think.

“New Studies Fail To Find Associations Between Psychedelic Drugs And Mental Health Problems“

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/new-studies-fail-find-associ...

There's also a significant body of literature that does not fail to find such associations.

If there is, then a good meta analysis should be possible or already done.

Feel free to add citations, but the most recent findings seem to suggest no negative impacts.

Psychedelics bring forth what needs to be looked at; if one doesn’t have an intention or support to do that, they may want to want until they do.

The same could probably be said for falling in love or starting a company as well.

In fact, my guess is that romantic relationships and entrepreneurship probably trigger “underlying mental issues” with at least as much frequency as psychedelics.

>Let's make breeding illegal?

Well, it certainly would help the cost of food come down and start reducing greenhouse gas emissions...

> Think about the prevalence of depression versus incidence of suicide as an example.

The article actually talks about depression. How many suicides are or can be averted with psychedelics? You can’t judge things like that in a vacuum.

Promoting psychedelics as strong medicine to be used only by medical experts is very different from legalizing psychedelics because some people claim less potential for harm than alcohol or tobacco.

By any objective assessment they are not even in the same league[1]. Should you be prescribed alcohol by a doctor, as well? After all, a significant number of people can’t be trusted to use it responsibly.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness

Alcohol can safely be enjoyed in moderation, as countless humans have successfully managed for thousands of years.

A single LSD trip can ruin you, as many people have proven in these past tens of years.

A single drunken escapade can ruin your life. What’s your point?

The point is that alcohol is predictable and does not affect your well being after the intoxication. Proven countless times.

Using psychedelics is like playing russian roulette. Proven countless times. The effects of a reasonable dose of psychedelics ranges from weird experience to psychosis (you do not recognize false beliefs) to the worst action you have made.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/28/why-were-early-psychede...

There is a reason why alcohol and tobacco are accepted in almost all societies while opioids and psychedelics are treated differently.

IMO too many people suffer already from psychosis. E.g. flat earthers, denial of climate change denial, denial of urgent action against climate change, low carb diet is healthy,...

Judging what is real and what not is already difficult for many without psychedelics.

Read about Donald Trump or Scott Pruitt, the ex-EPA administrator.

Someone prone to alcoholism tries their first gateway alcoholic drink, becomes alcoholic, kills themselves and several other people in a drunk driving manslaughter. This is not hypothetical, it’s a much too common scenario.

You’re praising the de facto drug of violence, comparable in social harm only to heroin, as “socially acceptable”, while grossly misrepresenting the actual harm potential of substances like LSD (“Openness To Experience” is “Russian roulette”, seriously? So is a trip to the Grand Canyon.)

Then you just call anyone you disagree with mentally ill… You know Donald Trump is a teetotaler, right?

The blog linked above has some good information about how conditional probabilities work as well. I advise checking it out. Really enhances your ability to examine the world and arrive at sound insights if that's something you're interested in. (very much unlike LSD)

To your last comment, maybe this is surprising, but I'm a teetotaler myself.

> very much unlike LSD

Have you ever tried LSD yourself?

Of course not, are you nuts?

You should.

If you (or anyone) wants a very good (long, multipart, short book) report on an experience like that, check out https://www.stilldrinking.org/the-episode-part-1.

TL;DR, don't do LSD if you've not slept properly for a week.

Here is another compelling public account: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary

I think the consensus is psychedelics can trigger or exacerbate mental illness you're already predisposed to. If your family has a history of mental illness you should probably avoid psychedelics. Even if they don't it might be wise to wait until your late 20s to see if any signs of mental illness appear.

But that's not really any different than people predisposed to heart disease smoking or drinking alcohol or eating McDonalds.

In the worst case McDonald's takes far longer to effectively render you a nonperson, for one. Tastes better too.

“New Studies Fail To Find Associations Between Psychedelic Drugs And Mental Health Problems“

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/new-studies-fail-find-associ...

The psychodelics will not cause the illness in any way or form - rather the "experience" might trigger an existing one (that potentially can be caused by anything). Although thats still fits with the point about having a disposition to something and acting accordingly. AKA using common sense :D

I thought I went insane from Psychedelics for about a decade.

Then I did them again in a therapeutic setting and realized I hadn’t a lot of unprocessed trauma that was causing the psychosis, depression, mania, etc.

A few theraptic sessions later, no longer diagnosable as schizophrenic, Biploar and no more suicidal ideation, anxiety, panic attacks, etc.

I’m one story, but my research indicates this is a viable path and I’m working on going back to school to be able to conduct research.

I'm not sure I understand. You had a psychologist retract schizophrenia and BPD diagnoses? Or do you just mean after taking LSD again you no longer feel like you suffer from those conditions?

The latter.

About 20 years ago I was diagnosed schizophrenic after driving my car into the back of a semi in an attempt to teleport to visit my girlfriend. (Sober)

More recently (5 years ago) I was diagnosed with BPD after being suicidal on the Golden Gate Bridge.

I spent my twenties in a very visionary / mystic / mythic (schizophrenic) state of Conciousness and just didn’t discuss it for fear of being medicated.

A few years ago a found relief trough a combination of MDMA, Mushrooms, NARM Therapy, Breathwork and Relationship as a Path.

I no longer suffer the symptoms, Am no longer diagnosable, and my subjective experience was one of going into deep repressed traumas (birth, circumsicion, parents divorce, abusive step dad, etc) and feeling and releasing them.

I’ve had a psychiatrists, Ivy League hospitals, and film makers approach me for insights into how my approach might help others.

I’m aware I am an N of one, but I tempered my intuition and insights with research (when I was suicidal I was also helping Peter Theil with a private medical research startup and had access to some great minds).

Here is a podcast I did recently with more detail if it is interesting to you:

https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-48-anthony-adams/

(I’m also aware that the standard advice is to avoid psychedelics if you have these conditions — for myself, I took the risk as my understanding of mental illness shifted and I was interested in going more deeply into the uncomfortable states in order to heal. For me it paid off, and hopefully it will for others as I work with researchers to expand our understanding of if my results can be replicated — so far it seems they can, with the right Support.)

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