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Comment by roganartu | Hacker News Reader

The ACCC and strong consumer protection laws are something I didn't realise I took for granted until I moved to the US recently. I had a pair of pants develop a hole within a few weeks of purchase so I took them back to the store and it was difficult to convince them that pants should last longer than that and get a replacement. This is in contrast to my Fitbit, for example, which I had replaced about three times in two years without question in Australia because of a fault in the band.

It's interesting that capitalism comes into it somewhat, insofar as companies like Amazon and REI have consumer-friendly return policies as a sort of competitive advantage. I know I've bought things from REI despite a higher price just because I know I won't have any problems returning it for any reason within 12 months.

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That is interesting. In my case, I have had the best consumer-friendly experience when it comes to returning or replacing items in the US. Returning electronics, clothes etc. to Wallmart, Target, BestBuy was totally hassle-free. When compared to Germany, the overall experience in the US is much better. Although Germans have "stronger" customer rights protection, in reality, you get less customer satisfaction. For example, a few days ago I purchased a pair of sunglasses from TKMaxx in Germany. After wearing it a couple of times, I realized that there are tiny scratches on them. I then took it back for a replacement. I was denied the replacement, because "the item didn't have the original price sticker on it". It was such a ridiculous excuse. I tear the price sticker the moment I buy the stuff. How am I supposed to test it to see if I like it without using it at all? There was another friend of mine who wanted to get a replacement for a malfunctioning smartphone he bought in MediaMarkt. He was also denied the replacement in the first place. After a long "negotiations" he was finally given a new smartphone, which, again, would not happen in the US at all. All in all, I find shopping experience in the US to be way better than in Europe.

You want the receipt to return stuff at the market, though generally if it's not a warranty case then you're at the sellers good will if they accept it.

Online shops are a bit better and you can return within 14 days no questions asked.

Most of german consumer protection happens at the backend and between shops, not directly with the consumer.

of course, I had the receipt. Otherwise, they wouldn't even consider replacing them.

> though generally if it's not a warranty case then you're at the sellers good will if they accept it.

well, that is the problem. A good set of consumer protection laws shouldn't leave the consumer to the seller's good will, don't you think?

> Most of german consumer protection happens at the backend and between shops, not directly with the consumer.

Whatever that means... Why would I care what happens behind the doors If I, as a consumer, don't see the real-life benefits of it?

The thing is, German customer protection laws are just laws with no real implications. As with almost everything else in Germany, there are more exceptions to the laws than the laws themselves, which makes it possible for the stronger side (sellers, renter, contractors etc. ) to find a loophole and exploit it for their benefit.

I am not even talking about scammy contracts with internet and mobile companies that would not be possible in any other developed country. A very relevant link: https://twitter.com/FRYTG/status/1023927351514734593

>A good set of consumer protection laws shouldn't leave the consumer to the seller's good will, don't you think?

When you buy in store, the old saying "bought as seen" applies. If I buy some food and find out on the way home that it's spoiled and past date, I can bring it back and likely it'll get replaced but they don't have to. I should have checked. When you buy glasses, check for scratches.

For warranty claims you'd need some kind of bigger problem than something that can be considered wear and tear or that was present when bought.

The consumer laws are concerned with malicious activity where someone is trying to actively trick a customer (which is where you get silly rulings like vegan sausages not being able to be called sausages as such would imply it contains meat).

And don't worry about implications or consequences, when the responsible government offices get riled up they really hit hard.

In regards to mobile/internet contracts, it helps to read the fineprint. Additionally if they do make trouble, contacting your local customer rights organization, the contract will get dropped very fast with little complaints.

> When you buy glasses, check for scratches.

Those scratches were only visible under direct sunlight and after a close examination. Besides, you assume that it is always possible to see defects when buying an item, which is, I am sorry, really ridiculous.

The point is, if I bought the same pair of glasses in the US, there would be zero problems returning them. Absolutely zero. In most cases, they would even apologize for selling you a defective item and wasting your time. Not the case for Germany, and this is the problem. Does Germany have better customer protection laws than most of the developing world? Definitely. Does Germany have better customer protection laws and better customer satisfaction than the US and most other developed countries? Definitely not. And that was my point.

Edit: typos

> In regards to mobile/internet contracts, it helps to read the fineprint.

The same old argument... The problem originates from the fact that the internet/phone providers can actually put those fine prints on the contract. So saying that you should read the fineprints doesn't mean anything. Why don't I have the same type of scammy contract elsewhere? Why is it only in Germany (at least among the many countries I have lived in)? Why does someone who already moved to the Netherlands have to wait for 6 months to cancel the contract they had with a phone company? Shouldn't it be immediate? I leave the country, which means I should be able to cancel any contracts that I have with any company. That should be a basic customer right, or even better, that should be the default treatment of customers by the companies without even needing all these regulations. The copmanies should have this customer-centric mindset, which is lacking in Germany in almost every field (aka Serviewüste Deutschland)

> If I buy some food and find out on the way home that it's spoiled and past date, I can bring it back and likely it'll get replaced but they don't have to.

The sell by date is set by the merchant, so you’re right there. But spoilt? I doubt it’s ok to sell rotten food in any western country.

E.g. , EU regulations summarised:

https://www.food.gov.uk/business-guidance/general-food-law

> Article 14 states that food shall not be placed on the market if it is unsafe. Food is deemed to be unsafe if it is:

> - injurious to health

> - unfit for human consumption

I’m not sure you can make the claim that as long as you didn’t know, it was ok. Sure, actual mistakes can mean it’s not a punishable offence, but that doesn’t change your responsibilities: you sell something, it has to be reasonably fit for purpose. Consumer laws don’t care whether the merchant didnt try to mislead you when it comes to their responsibilities for the products they sell.

Thankfully :)

> If I buy some food and find out on the way home that it's spoiled and past date, I can bring it back and likely it'll get replaced but they don't have to. I should have checked. When you buy glasses, check for scratches.

Under Australian consumer law, the product is considered faulty and you are entitled to a refund or replacement.

In fact if the product is as sold or unconsumed, you are entitled to a refund within 30 days of sale.

You'll find that replacements for change of mind in Australia (and perhaps other countries with strong consumer protections) are less friendly. I have definitely noticed there are more stores in the US (especially big box retailers that are competing with Amazon) that have flexible return policies in the short term for changing your mind, while my expectation for any store in Australia is that you are likely unable to return something for change of mind if it has been used.

The trade off for that is that you get very long periods of fitness for use, where you can comfortably buy something that is advertised for a purpose and know that you can return it after a reasonable time if it isn't actually fit for that purpose. A good example is smartphones and laptops, where Australian-sold iphones effectively have a two year warranty and macbooks have a three year one iirc because of these strong consumer protection laws.

It's these kinds of faulty goods returns to smaller retailers that I've had most trouble with in the US (and where I think consumer protection makes the most sense). In Australia the consumer would simply file a complaint online to the Department of Fair Trading (or whatever it is for their state) and these are usually resolved within a couple of weeks or less and usually in the consumer's favour. I'm not aware of any equivalent in the US, and if it does exist I'm sure it varies significantly state-to-state.

>> How am I supposed to test it to see if I like it without using it at all?

Test it in the store. Nobody in north america expects they can buy something, walk away with it, and then have a right to return it simply because they don't "like it". A store may take it back but only because they are kind, not because they are under any legal obligation.

Remember there is always a flip side to returns. Either the seller eats a loss, or they put the now used object back on the shelf as new. That is why safety-related products have a zero-returns policy. Rock climbing gear is generally non-returnable. I probably would not buy climbing gear from any store that did returns for fear of getting used gear with unseen problems.

> Test it in the store.

Thanks, but I will pass. I would rather test my stuff at home, taking my time. In general, it will lead to higher customer satisfaction and confidence. People would be willing to buy more often knowing that in case they are not satisfied, they can simply return the product hassle-free. (A concise and clear return policy gives consumers a feeling of security; that what they are buying is guaranteed to be what it is represented to be. If a retailer doesn't give this guarantee, then consumers often become suspicious and avoid buying the product.)

> Nobody in north america expects they can buy something, walk away with it, and then have a right to return it simply because they don't "like it".

Have you ever been to the Customer service section of a WallMart store? :)

Of course, there should be a code of honor by the customers as well. If you buy something with the intention of returning it after using, then you are just a bad person. But that shouldn't mean If I have legitimate reasons to return some item, I shouldn't. That is how stores maintain customer satisfaction, thus a competitive advantage.

> Nobody in north america expects they can buy something, walk away with it, and then have a right to return it simply because they don't "like it".

What are you talking about? Many refund agreements have exactly this in mind. It's a competitive advantage for the store to be lenient.

When I worked at Walmart and Target during summers as a teen, we were encouraged to get the customer to buy a few different options (curtains for example) and tell them to just return the ones they don't want. Especially clothes.

I encourage you to check out the terms of refund for the places you shop instead of assuming you're stuck with a product you don't want.

>> Many refund agreements have exactly this in mind.

Agreements, contracts between willing parties, not legal rights coming from law. I expect that I can return something, I don't pretend that I have a legal expectation that I can do so at any and all stores.

Well, the fact is Germany has neither. At least in the US customers do get higher quality customer service and that is what matters. I would rather have a satisfied consumer experience than a useless set of laws and regulations that does no good to anyone.

As @always_good pointed out already, a flexible return policy is actually a competitive advantage for the company if they know how to conduct a retail business properly. I, for example, would always prefer Amazon to any other German online store simply because the confidence Amazon gives me when shopping. I can easily go on a shopping spree on Amazon knowing that if I don't like something I can easily send it back, although, during the last 3 years, I haven't sent a single item back to Amazon.

American businesses love to bend over backwards for the customer but hate to admit that they owe you anything. If you ask for a replacement almost as if it's a favor, they find it flattering. If you say anything that implies you think they're obligated, they find it threatening, and it will take you much longer to walk out with a replacement (and a much less friendly send-off.)

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