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Either your frustration is great, or you have the mind of a jedi. This is without a doubt the most scathing review I've read of agile, and you don't seem to even be trying.

The problem is, most of the people who you are working with, only have 0-2 years of experience in the technology that they are using (use of research / deep learning to build products). Look at their resumes. They'd be either recent PhD grads, who haven't built a single product in their life. Or traditional engineers who had just joined the field of building products with an approach that is very different from one that they are experienced in.

I would also caution you. Do you really know the technology that you are trying to make safe? Building systems with research / deep learning is as different from traditional software development as synthetic biology from electrical engineering.

That's an institutional problem though.

Yes, it's true that most companies hire way more people, way too quickly than is probably prudent for a problem domain (especially one that is still such an open-ended science project like AVs), and that as a result barely anybody has any idea what they're doing measured against what's being expected of them, but that's a wound that is entirely self-inflicted. It's not a natural law that one needs to suddenly staff up dozens or hundreds of really expensive people ahead of any real capacity to train or assimilate them, but it does happen with depressing regularity. If anything, I'd say this is probably the biggest problem I see in the ecosystem that you and I are in.

The team I work with is small. Everyone has several (5-15) years of experience consuming research, turning it into practical solutions, and in some cases even having created a novel practical application that was later supported by adjacent research.

It's not easy to construct a team of half-dozen to a dozen prolific programmers w/ a bent toward the academic, but an innate sensibility for remaining pragmatic and applicable. But, it's also not impossible to do so either. This is inline with my incentives comments elsewhere. I think the incentives are broken at too many layers to be able to be fastidious and intentional about how we solve problems. Say you get an "empire builder" into the leadership structure... you're doomed. The whole point of everything becomes about having as big of a "rockstar" team as possible, not about trying to solve a problem. Unless the problem one is trying to solve is how to quickly become the SVP of an extremely expensive and probably fairly unproductive team of increasingly disaffected previously very effective people.

I'm finding a fifteen years figure hard to believe. There was a handful of people at that time that have invented deep learning. It took years to get any industry use, as the technology was not yet competitive, until AlexNet.

We don't work in AI/ML, we work on high-assurance distributed systems.

That said, you'd be right. Not 15-years in something like computer vision. No such thing as formally verified NNs, regardless of what nuTonomy claims, exist. Even the basis about what one would be trying to verify is an open question. It's partially the point of DARPA's Assured Autonomy program.

The problem at the moment is that the ecosystem has two science projects on its hands. How to make an ML-derived driver is one. How to make a stable, correct substrate for acquiring data, make a decision, and react correctly is another. The only one most people hire up for is the former, and the latter is at least as challenging.

Isn't it a "high-assurance distributed AI/ML system"? It is interesting that there is indeed a tendency to factorize it. I believe, this tendency arises because there are two groups of people that are available - traditional engineers, that are excellent and experienced, but do not know the language of AI and can't tell an ensemble from an embedding. And AI engineers, who are yet to build their first product.

Sort of. Except I don't think there's a such thing as "high-assurance AI/ML". Put simply for the audience here. The goal is to have the whole stack from top to bottom be as predictable and deterministic as possible.

There's a layer of it (the AI/ML bits) which is necessarily probabilistic. That's by design. It's how it all works. All the layers below that today are currently terrifyingly probabilistic. It's difficult to advance the capability of the whole domain when the necessarily probabilistic parts are depending on shifting sands as a stable foundation.

I agree though that there's a large gap there in the domain expertise of the parties involved, and that's produced significant challenges as we've not yet figured out how to close that gap.

Are you sure, such thing as "high-assurance AI/ML" doesn't exist? Are you an expert in AI, with many years of experience building products with AI technology?

I'm not an expert in AI, but as you can imagine I have to interact with a lot of people who are. What I do know is what it means to be able to do end-to-end verification and it seems fairly antithetical to the basis of machine learning which has an open-ended failure domain. If you could write an AI as a total program, it would cease to be probabilistic. It would become propositional, but would also seem to cease to be writable and computationally tractable. As it would need to encode all possible states of all possible features of all relevant domains and all possible things that can interact with each of those things and what their effects would be.

Though, I'm happy to be proven wrong here as it would make me a lot less nervous about the future were there a way to legitimately assure the artificial driver in an AV won't fail in emergent ways, or at all.

"What foolishness! What nonsense! .... For as children tremble and fear everything in the blind darkness, so we in the light sometimes fear what is no more to be feared than the things children in the dark hold in terror and imagine will come true. This terror therefore and darkness of mind must be dispelled not by the rays of the sun and glittering shafts of day, but by the aspect and law of nature."

LUCRETIUS, De Rerum Natura

:)

I work on the formal verification of AI systems as well, but focusing on model-based reasoning systems rather than the model-free ML systems. What you've described is exactly what terrifies me most about ML in safety critical contexts: it can fail in a large number of ways, and predicting these ahead of time is generally intractable.

I like to think of it in terms of quantifiers: for most systems it's fine to say that there exists a set of representative tests that the system passes. For critical systems, you really want "for all" in there instead.

Fortunately the model-based systems are much easier to reason about, even if they suffer from difficulty modeling certain cases. For a model-free system I think the starting point would be to precisely state a correctness criterion that could be used as a decision procedure on the output of the model; the combined system would be "verified" to a certain degree. Unfortunately you can't guarantee that it would always be able to yield an answer (it might always give a bad one which was rejected) and, the more fundamental problem, one might reasonably expect that if you can express the correctness property to a sufficient level of detail that you can perform verification on it you might be able to write an easier-to-verify implementation that doesn't rely on ML.

This stuff is hard, yo.

So, two questions:

1. What parts of AI/ML have to be nondeterministic?

Once the model is trained then it should be completely deterministic. There are some training techniques that randomize the order or grouping of data, but they are primarily used because random is almost as good as finding the optimal ordering/grouping and finding the optimal ordering/grouping is hard. Sometimes randomness is used to augment the data to give you more examples to for against (because the model is too complex to train/fit with the data you have it you want to be robust to certain variations in input. If you're talking outputs then you should get the same outputs from a model given the same inputs. There are some really bad models out there that are way over fitted (relevant xkcd - https://m.xkcd.com/2048/ see "house of cards") and some people working on ML have a terrible grasp of statical techniques (just try models until they find one that fits), but even these models are deterministic.

What is so bad about nondeterminism anyway? Ethernet used nondeterminism to handle collision resolution. There best prime finding algorithms are nondeterministic. There is nothing wrong with appropriate nondeterminism.

I think your frustration largely arises because the problem you work on is uncommon. The goals you are working towards are very large and error is not an option because people die or at least massive property damage occurs. Most applications aren't like that. It doesn't matter much if 1/10k image upload to Instagram fail. We have a lot more Instagrams than autonomous cars so the engineering culture conversion is largely dominated by those trade offs. It's interesting because I think we see experiencing the pendulum having swung heavily towards Agile. In the past we used to slow down some crud apps by first drawing UML diagrams. Fingers crossed that we can discover a wider, more differentiated range of engineering practices.

My particular vein of work certainly makes me more likely to have interacted with this different way of doing things, but I don't think at all that it's a necessary component to there being reasons to consider it and reap the benefits of it. Because I didn't always used to be in this vein of work, and in retrospect I would have benefited enormously from being more judicious and fastidious in my prior lives using things like TLA+ or requiring even super basic things from my co-workers/teammates like property-based tests. I would have saved so much time and money and heartache over the years.

It can't possibly be more efficient to take 50 fairly expensive people and have them iterate 10,000 times toward something that still ends up being fairly broken---and requires maintenance in perpetuity---than it is to take 6 slightly more expensive people, and have them iterate 10 times toward something that does exactly and only what it is supposed to do and requires basically no attention once it's been instantiated, can it? Even if you're Instagram.

> It's become more important to produce the appearance of progress and effort than it is to actually make progress and thoughtfully apply effort.

That's why I'm sceptical about going to work on the autonomous vehicles tech (although it is tempting). I'm affraid there's been so much money and hype around it that "failure is not an option" - i.e. companies will sooner see another Challenger disaster than admit that they're not on track for their announced goals.

Based on your handle and your concerns, you should email me. :-)

I absolutely would, but how do I reach you? :) There's no contact info in your profile.

spam.is.food.not.mail@gmail.com is a reasonable way to reach me.

^^^ I'm quite serious.