H-1B: As immigration furor roils Silicon Valley, Canada smooths way for techies
mercurynews.com
mercurynews.com
My life's goal is contribute to curing/diagnosing terminal disease using technology. Everything I did in the past 14 years has been towards meeting that goal. I figured, I would need knowledge, network, and financial stability. I moved to US in 2011 and over 14 years I achieved all of these. However, after moving to US I realized that I lost the most critical piece: ability to work on this goal without significant restrictions.
Visas like H1/O1 have lot of restrictions on what you can work. Recently it has become extremely difficult for early stage startups to get H1, especially if the applicant owns significant equity.
Once you get invested and comfortable in a place, you stay put. I worked really hard to break this ceiling. I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got rejected both times. You need 3 out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2 petitions and an appeal - separate USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But none of them gave me 3, and their responses were very hostile.
I had to deal with H1/O1 petition every year while I pursued my entrepreneurship goals. However, I am finally done with this and can't do it anymore. I think I also have PTSD because of my experience dealing with immigration. I could not work to my potential, missed family events because I couldn't travel and stayed in limbo for too long.
However, finally I have moved out of US. I want to pursue my goal to attack terminal disease without any employment restrictions. At this point, Canada seems like the best place for this and that is where I am moving.
I am originally from India, and as mentioned in a few other posts, I do not want to live there because of quality of life challenges.
I will write more detailed posts sometime next year detailing my experience. However in summary my advise is:
If you are from India, come to US only if you internalize that you are in a temporary situation with a set goal: make more money/learn/build network. Don't get too invested, because you might need to leave at short notice. If you are an entrepreneur, you would be spending the best years of your life, without being able to perform to your potential due to immigration related bureaucracy. India, currently, has great opportunities for Entrepreneurs.
I was lucky to be able to found a company on H1, sell it and work at a few great companies. Still it wasn't enough to make it here.
As someone who's fresh into the technology industry after grad school, it would be great to get your perspective regarding planning and executing on a long-term vision in such a manner. I'm sure a lot of other people would too. Replying here since I couldn't find any contact details on your HN profile--in case you would like questions to initiate thought on the topic, I'd love to participate in a conversation. Looking forward to hearing from you either ways!
1. Identify a real person in whose position I would want to be 10 years from now.
2. Figure out the path from that person to my current situation. Usually this involves figuring out filling missing gaps along multiple dimensions: e.g. knowledge, connections, financial situation.
3. Create 5 year and 2 year checkpoints/goals on each of the dimensions.
4. Break 2 year plan into monthly goals.
5. Execute, learn, critically analyze every quarter. Brutally prioritize.
6. If there is a learning which requires major change in plan, start again from step 1.
I think the most important part was step 1. Rest is execution. It is also important to align your goal with something that you are passionate about. You would need passion to drive you towards your goal.
I put some of the thoughts on company building at [redacted] during sleepless nights with our baby. I will put more thoughts, especially around immigration sometime next year.
Keep up the good fight friend, you'll be an asset to any country lucky enough to call you their citizen.
Need to fix the final missing piece: Find a place to call home. Once that is done, will work for the next 20 years attacking terminal disease!
I don't really understand. Do you mean to say that the USCIS officer wanted you to meet 4 criteria while the rules specify 3? Did you take them to court over it?
If you already were on O-1 visa, it should've been easy to qualify for EB-1 GC. The criteria is pretty similar for both. Did you try a different law firm? What criteria specifically did you not meet?
individually, they both give 2 criteria. Together, they would give 4. (So, say, the 1st one gives criteria #1 and #2, and the second #3 and #4)
First time then gave me 2 criteria (contribution to field of work and contribution to companies). On Appeal, AAO gave me another criteria (high compensation) and took away 1 already given (contribution to field of work).
Second time, my application was much stronger - but they gave me just one criteria (press).
I didn't take them to court over it. Didn't want to deal with that.
I will try a different firm next time.
I used to envy EB1s a lot (I'm from India, lived here in US for a good amount of time), then got to know what a hassle it is to go through the process, even after an I-140 is approved, until they get a GC. With current processing delays for the associated renewals (adjustment of status and h1b)often, the EB1 applicant (and the family) cannot travel out of the US for most of the year. Being immigrants, this puts a lot of stress on you and your family.
Since you were good for EB1, and are in research field, I hope there's enough research funding/activity in Canada in the field you specialize in. I know a few post docs who are too tired to go through the EB1 process in the US, while they have no funding for their research in Canada!
The fear, uncertainty and doubt is very real among all immigrants afaict.
Beyond that, I'd find it surprising that progressive policy should depress wages - conservative economic stance typically weighs in favour of Capital.
The ultimate irony of the parent post is that the values he strongly identifies with are those that thwart his dearest wish. Emblematic of the human condition?
It doesn't matter what country you are currently in there will be people who want to live somewhere else. Some will get it done but most won't take any steps towards making it happen.
An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-immigrant visa.
Expecting permanent residency from a non-immigrant visa is no different than expecting a French tourist visa to lead to residency.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employme...
And here, for future reference, because short of a citation of the law, and probably even then, you won't quit spreading junk knowledge:
Better reference: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1184
b) Presumption of status; written waiver Every alien (other than a nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (L) or (V) of section 1101(a)(15) of this title, and other than a nonimmigrant described in any provision of section 1101(a)(15)(H)(i) of this title except subclause (b1) of such section) shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for a visa, and the immigration officers, at the time of application for admission, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant status under section 1101(a)(15) of this title.
Source : https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-nonimm...
Congress clearly intended this it back in 2000, when it passed Public Law 106-313 ("American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act"), which allowed H-1B extensions beyond 6 years for those who are waiting for green cards. If Congress didn't think the H-1B visa should be a path to a green card, why would they pass that bill?
Also the government has recognized it many times through regulation. For example, look at the number of times this regulation talks about a "path": https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/11/18/2016-27...
E2 visa is employment-based, which means the applicant needs to be employed by the time they applies (usually through OPT or H1B).
So it's not an "either-or" situation.
So not sure what your comment implies.
>An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-immigrant visa.
It does make sense, because currently the quota is country based. So if you're from a small country, say Cambodia, and have an advanced degee, you can get on a H1B and get a green card in about 7 months, whether 'intended' or not.
If you think it makes sense for a person born in India to wait for 150 years while paying taxes etc, and a person born in a different country waits for 7 months, we’ll, it’s clear what your POV is.
Not true. Congress clearly intended this back in 2000 when it passed AC21, and the government has also recognized this through regulation.
I know lot of ppl who have been dreaming of this for years but money and opportunity here in US is too good to pass up. 99% of ppl on H1B are not starting companies.
Most ppl just don't have the appetite to slash their income by half. "preparing" doesn't count as a example.
If you're in the class of programmer than can half your salary by moving to Canada you're still going to be earning at the very least $120k in Toronto, and that's all that shitty. I continue to choose to live in a common wealth (in the old sense of the term) for a reason.
As far as I can tell this is not really true. There are small areas in the US with extreme violence and it skews the overall statistics.
> More likely to become truly poor
Again I’m not sure this is true for a programmer - every year I save 2-3 years worth of living costs.
> earning at the very least $120k in Toronto
What is the cost of a decent 3-4 bedroom house in Toronto fairly close to work?
If it’s anything like Vancouver then $120k is not enough.
Ya, I'm not buying this. Maybe 12 students sharing a 4/5 bedroom house that is a mid-distance walk from bus transit that requires you to transfer to a another bus/subway to get you where you're going.
If you're a software dev and properly value your time, this type of housing is a no-go.
The point is that it's feasible for a 3rd world person to save up, move to Toronto, and still have a private living space while working towards home ownership, whereas SF struggles pretty hard with homelessness of even full-fledged american citizens.
Even over the past 2 years, rent prices have increased aggressively.
Nowadays, you're lucky to spend just north of $2000/month for a 2 bedroom.
It was 10+ years ago, sure, but also I had the smallest room (actually a den) so I paid the least. The total rent was 1500 IIRC for what was technically a 2bed+den. I just googled and rent for the same type of apt in that building is going for around $2000 as you said. So if I were to have the same rent splitting arrangement today, I'd probably be paying around $600, maybe $700 for a better room. Which, remember, is around the same as the 3-bunk-bed-room deal-of-the-century in SF.
Also consider my salary back then was CAD 37k. Nowadays a person w/ 1-2 yrs angular experience can land a CAD 100k job fairly easily. My wife sees new grads getting 75k at CGI fresh out of school. The real estate bubble popped too, so it's definitely a buyers market now for those who were eyeing home ownership.
Yes you can spend $3k CAD on a shiny new two-bedroom midrise condo if you want to, but that's the exception. Most people live in places that cost between $600 to $1200 per person. Max $2k ($1.5k USD) if you live alone.
Nobody I know is paying $400 in heating. That's northern Ontario electric baseboard heating rates. My total electricity bill for all of 2016 was $400.
Beer is not $10. It is $7. Entrees are $14 ($11 USD), not $30.
You're missing my point. I was making $200k+ at 27 in 2012. You can make money here. It's not SV high, true, but it is high enough. There are other things that matter than raw salary.
In Toronto? I hope you don't mind my asking: doing what?
Canada's institutions do not accept the immigrant professional's academic credentials, training or their work experience.
A general nurse with 15 years of work experience from India cannot practice the same job duties in Canada due to this restrictions. So they resort to other jobs like home care.
A lot of immigrant nurses in Québec who are from India and Philippines are working in factories now because Québec nurse's association do not recognize their nursing degrees.
The doctors who immigrate drive taxis in Toronto because their credentials are not recognized.
Unlike in the US, for some reason Canadian regulatory bodies have a hard time recognizing credentials of immigrant professionals there by forcing them to take up another job.
A colleague tells me there is this Canadian doctor's and nurses lobby which "protects" the Canadian professional order from immigrant professionals who have come to take up their jobs.
Right now, only IT professionals are accepted as they are. Every other professionals immigrating to Canada should be prepared to re certify their professions or take up additional courses.
all these only apply to lower income ppl in US not to ppl on h1b, they can simply move back to higher middle class in India if things go wrong.
The choice is between H1B in Canada vs H1B in US. Presumably permanent residency is the plan, so "simply moving back to India" isn't the plan if things go wrong 5 years later.
So yeah, it's possible, but it is no walk in the park.
For example, the chance of getting violently harmed, is solved by living in a good neighborhood.
The problem of healthcare is solved by paying for good health insurance. The issue of retirement is solved by putting lots of your money into a retirement account.
Life really is quite amazing for people in the upper 10%, in america. And programmers easily fall into that category.
That's a pretty broad brush you're smearing with there, amigo.
An employer who hired me based on a promise of EB greencard. Employer screwed me at last moment by giving a lame excuse as to why the GC process stalled.
In the mean time, had saved up enough to put 20% down on a 500K+ home in N.E. US. Had almost paid the booking fee. But wife's employer started giving the deaf ear treatment when following up on the GC.
Now, we are all set to move to Canada in a month or two. Once we find jobs for our respective fields (both are in good, in-demand tech jobs) we'll say good bye to years of bonded labor and living in uncertainty.
So we will finally buy a house in a country which we can call home, without ever thinking of being 'hopeless 3rd class residents of a country with no hopes of citizenship'.
(I hope the Americans who can vote, will work towards fixing this system)
Besides, you're not going to make a million dollars in a few years. New grad salaries take a while to turn into experienced developer salaries, and the money you make from 20-30 is unlikely to last you all the way to retirement, even if you return to India.
It also true that we don't have the capability to support large number of talented folks. Thinks are improving for sure. But it will take much more effort to improve the situation rapidly.
LOL. Your comment doesn't even pass smell taste. How many people working as developers will make million dollars in few years after paying payroll taxes? Federal, state, social security, medicare on top of paying for housing, car insurance, health insurance, renter/house owner's insurance, trips back to homeland etc etc. Forget about fun and entertainment, or clothes, shoes, phones, computers, internet etc. Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost unachievable.
Now assuming every single immigrant that comes here after college makes $150 right off the bat, that $60K in bank every year. At that rate, to save million dollars, one would need 16.66 years. That too assuming there are no incidentals that become money pits.
Good luck getting married at almost 40 or getting uprooted and having to adjust to the different work environment or progress in the industry without any contacts. It's not all puppys and rainbows.
Hah that’s a wealthy American point of view.
When I first moved to the US I was saving 85% of my after tax income.
Most (non-scam) Indian H1B holders I know are saving 6 figures a year.
I agree, a million in a few years would be rare.
In 10 years though? It’s certainly reasonable.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
The reason rents are so high in California is because everybody and their dog are trying to do the same thing. There's only so much room in California. That's just the reality.
Too bad there are not incentives to create start-ups in places with relatively depressed economies, like Chicago and the Rust Belt.
Source?
1. The magnitude of the Canada -> US migration flow has lowered
2. The magnitude of the US -> Canada migration flow has raised.
PhD is not enough according to Wikipedia:
The EB-1 is a preference category for United States employment-based permanent residency. It is intended for "priority workers". Those are foreign nationals who either have "extraordinary abilities", or are "outstanding professors or researchers", and also includes "some executives and managers of foreign companies who are transferred to the US".[1] It allows them to remain permanently in the US.
> outstanding professors or researchers
Works if you have published papers referenced by 10 people. I don't have a PhD but I know a couple of people, one really close friend who did this. In most of the cases PhDs do end up with published papers that get referenced by others. It took couple of years for him for the whole process as an Indian.
But, you're going to get to inherit his Corvette.
So a prediction I hope I'm wrong about: We temporarily enjoy driving the bully uncle's Corvette but soon find ourselves chasing the same dragon in it.
are you talking about the crack smoking mayor?
Are you Canadian? Is that what you mean by "we". (I'm just trying to understand the comment.)
Some of the smartest people I know, do not want to come to the US for higher education. Europe and Canada are quickly becoming the more desirable locations.
A few people that I know from FAANG tier companies have already started the Canada PR process.
I am surprised that the Canadian govt. isn't taking an initiative to try and incentivize more companies to start operations in Canada.
I can see companies saving a lot of money on wages, if they move to their offices to Canada.
Toronto isn't perfect and the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks, but if Amazon wants to hire 50,000 more tech workers then they'd better be doing so in a country that will let those 50,000 people work.
Seems like a natural hedge against anti-tech, anti-modern US establishment.
> the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks
Does it matter that much, though? As an insider you probably know better than me, but I assume that the lower cost of employment per head in Toronto would easily offset any kind of tax break.
My guess is that there are two teams. One has spent the last few years (long before the HQ2 announcement) building an incredible formula that estimates the expected return over the next 25 years for opening HQ2 in a given city, given these 100+ variables. The second team is collecting those 100+ variables for each city, maybe making analyses on cities to make better estimates on what those numbers look like.
The decision will then boil down to the city with the highest number popping out of the formula.
That's what I would expect from Amazon at least. I have no actual knowledge of what the process really is. Then again, after the Fire Phone fiasco it's clear not all of Amazon's decisions are made this way.
The Canadian tech sector doesn't make nearly as much money as their US counterpart does. The country has very few dedicated software companies, and none the caliber of the FAAMGs. For comparison, the largest software company in Canada by revenue earns $1.7B, Google is in the neighborhood of $120B a year.
Google/Microsoft/Facebook/Apple/etc are each individually orders of magnitude larger than the entire Canadian software industry combined. Chances are, that most metro areas in the US have a technology company larger than the biggest Canadian tech companies.
If Canada went from having a billion dollar tech sector to having a trillion dollar one, then salaries for engineers would explode.
We just need one of those companies to get fed up and move their HQ north. Canada's tech sector would double overnight.
I can even see that happening if the next couple US elections go the wrong way.
Add to that less friction around growing this workforce by bringing in new talent from abroad and it seems like a slam dunk.
You also need to actually be in Canada all those days. Any day that you're outside delays your citizenship by a day.
Then it takes about a year to process your citizenship application.
Overall, it's still much faster than most anywhere else.
I think it's more like every day that you are physically present in Canada pre-PR counts as 0.5 days. There's no such thing as a "tourist" under Canadian immigration law: you get a temporary resident visa/status/permit for your temporary "tourist" visits.
I think the part-day test applies (if you arrive in Canada at 10PM, even though you were only present for 2 hours, it counts as a half day).
There was a nice discussion on reddit about brain drain to Australia/Canada.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/w... https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_coun...
In the last couple months, I heard 2 big announcements, Microsoft establishing their Canada HQ[0] in Toronto, Uber [1] is investing big time.
[0] - https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-...
[1] - https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-prese...
[2] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...
It took me less than 2 weeks to find a job as a Ruby on Rails developer here in Melbourne.
The comments bagging on Australia seem like the classic self-denigrating comments that Aussies love to make about themselves.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...
It used to be that MS/AMZN had a back up base in Vancouver for anyone who didn't make the cut with H1B/O-1.
amazon/microsoft just regularly employs people in YVR, not just for L1 purposes. they've been causing salaries (and rents) to rise.
anyhow, you're discounting a lot of things about Vancouver because you make a little more and the weather is a little sunnier.
http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/padmapper-average-rent-canada...
https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-ren...
You're also overstating the difference in the weather. SF gets plenty of foggy, gloomy days.
Maybe salaries in those places will increase as a result.
As paradoxical as it might sound, competition attracts more and more work and raises wages for top talent. That's why SV has high salaries for engineers, NYC/London has high salary for finance, Bangalore has high salaries for local engineers (because competition creates an eco system, increasing the fight for talent).
Imagine Amazon moving their minimum wage workers to Ohio and then giving them $15/hr. Now, all other Ohio companies have to pay $15/hr or lose talent. Then the other companies start paying $18/hr and Amazon loses talent. Then Amazon raises rate to $20/hr and others lose talent and this keeps growing as more and more employers move to the region to find all those skilled employees who can join and be productive right away.
Canada makes a lot of sense. A lot of these people aren't just economic migrants, they are looking to settle down and start new lives. No immigrant in their right mind would do that in the US right now (if they have a viable alternative).
Perhaps - but other than gun violence, if I went back home several things would be unsafe.
Money can buy a lot of things, but it takes more money to buy a first world lifestyle in India than it takes to do it in Canada (or even the US, as surprising as it sounds).
Buying clean smoke free air and water you can drink out of the tap might not feel like luxuries, but that's priced in here (& even there, this is by no means perfect - see Flint).
And at least, I've yet to be stopped by a cop who wanted a bribe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_incom...
You are talking about Canadian citizens not immigrants who want to live in a developed country.
This is BS. Most ppl care about money above all else. India is a not a war zone its a "safe environment to raise family".
> I interview a lot of foreigners and there is clear trend that they don't want to go to the US with the current administration.
Why are you interviewing them then? Are you in Canada?
Canada just doesn't have the sort of top-tier companies that go head to head competing for talent that the US does. Hence, rates are lower.
And a far easier citizenship process in Canada means they won't have to worry about their kids anymore.
I agree about the weather, but bad weather doesn't affect your mental health anywhere as much as the uncertainty in America's never-ending visa process.
The more interesting thing to consider is whether US tech companies will begin to build out more aggressively in Canada instead of the US. Amazon HQ3 might make a lot of sense in Canada.
But that is the reality TODAY based on the talent pool accumulated YESTERDAY.
For other countries, that YESTERDAY is TODAY. They want a SV future and if they had to import some people to recreate SV, this pool of people is it.
I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal, and about the same as Vancouver).
For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by 30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out. The site Hired.com came to similar conclusions that I've attached in an image below [2]
To go into more detail, According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto, but of course the salary is more than 20% lower. But the real kicker is the rent, and while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to NYC of Silicon Valley levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more for an equivalent apartment in NYC.
Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of (pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets. Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great advantages.
If you're a US citizen, I don't think Canada or Toronto is enticing enough to drag you away - especially with places like Seattle, Austin and Colorado being better than SV and NYC in terms of Salary:CoL. But if you're not, Canada is comfortably the second best company to be a software engineer in, and the expected expansion of Amazon, Google and Microsoft in Toronto is likely to create a lot more high paying jobs and new startups in the coming years, especially with the US's anti-immigration stance basically making it impossible for Indians and the Chinese to get permanent residency.
The excellent universities and industry leading research in AI of UToronto and UWaterloo is a bonus if you're a student as well.
[1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou....
[2] http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8...
Why would you adjust for currency when you're paid in Canadian dollars?
Also currency, it sucks. Everything is more expensive. You can't get anywhere without 1-2 stops if you're flying.
I'm finishing up my last year at University of Alberta, and there is literally nothing that will keep me here.
It wasn't long ago that Google was offering 100k base in the valley(where <80k salary is considered below poverty line) and many Google and Facebook engineers still share an apartment with roommates.
If you want to maximise disposable income, you'll end up with much more at Seattle or Austin than in the bay or New York.
But I am aware of the breakdown of the compensation packages and I stand behind my statement having just accepted a new grad role at FAANG. 70-80k RSUs are on the lower end.
For example standard Facebook offers are 140 base, 100k signing, 150 stock / 4y.
I will be living with my partner and we calculated that with an apartment of 3-4k a month will be still saving at least tens of thousands of dollars a month, factoring in car lease, food, and what not.
Over the last 4 years accounting for stock rises, CoL and lower taxes, Amzn/Microsoft in Seattle would have paid out quite a bit more than FAANG in the valley.
[0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
[1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
[2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
[3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
[4] https://www.stoodnt.com/blog/top-student-cities-in-the-us-ou...
I don't think it's quite fair to include tax if you're not going to include savings for things like health care.
Furthermore, Toronto's housing market, while less expensive than Cali/NY, is still insane. I know you acknowledge this in passing, but Montreal's housing market is insanely affordable, and we've a great tech/uni scene.
Immigration to Quebec, might be getting harder for non-Canadians w/ our new provincial gov't, however.
That's actually the opposite, at least in tech, you need to talk English. In both placed I worked we had to talk English because there was a few employees that didn't talk French at all.
You must be comparing California monthly costs to Ontario yearly costs. Maximum Ontario annual premiums are $900.[1] To get equivalent coverage (by equivalent, I mean in terms of insurance value - as in, I won't have a $15,000 copay if I get into a serious accident) from Kaiser in Southern California (the "silver" plan) is about $750 per month for me and my wife. If you are covered through your employer (we both freelance), you might be getting fooled into thinking you are paying less money because your paychecks show a smaller number as "deducted," but that is because the rest is paid by your employer and is still part of your compensation.
[1] https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-rates
Hell, in BC, the gov't plan has a $4000 deductible if you make more than $100,000.
The $4k deductible in BC (which is similar in Ontario), provides catastrophic drug coverage for those that don't have drug coverage (e.g. contracts).
And your point about being "fooled" is disingenuous. Canadians pay for their health care through their taxes, so the amount is much higher as well than the health care tax which is nominal.
If you don't pay it, you'll get charged with tax evasion.
When the government announced it, they avoided the word "tax", but it absolutely is. Don't buy the gov's BS.
Overall if you earn 30-40% less, you might also have that much less after taxes.
Regarding cost of living: I found the minor expenses (e.g. restaurants) to be quite a bit cheaper than in the US. However the already expensive things are expensive here too. Especially housing/rent, which is currently pretty crazy here in Vancouver. I would expect being able to buy a condo or house a lot faster in the US than here.
But, you could make an argument that with the higher tax rates, renting/house prices and living expenses of California and NYC, Canada could be a viable alternative, especially if you want to go freelance/part-time and need the healthcare, or are a non-US citizen.
Major companies get attracted to areas with talent. That's why so so many companies have major offices in India now. Because of the pool of talent. Not just because of cost-cutting.
An example is: If Amazon doesn't hire enough smart people, they won't be able to expand/move nimbly and will get beaten by Flipkart in India (who have their own empire desires).
Couple of issues:
1. You might want to visit your family in home country. How do you enter back.
2. CBP can put a border check point anywhere 100 miles from a border. Which covers most of California (land and sea border) including SF. If you get caught in one, your would be arrested and deported.
3. If you overstay for more than 6 months you are banned from US for 3 years. If you overstay for more than 1 year, you are banned from entering US for 10 years.
4. Government knows that you are overstaying. They can also easily find out about your bank accounts, health insurance, doctor visits, kids going to school. They could apprehend you if they want to. It could start by sending you a NTA (Notice to Appear). Once you get an NTA, you can't even leave the country on your own terms without triggering a re-entry bar.
5. Most good employers won't give you a job without a work authorization.
Sadly, what you had suggested has been the life story of all the undocumented workers in US. And it is really tough. I know H1-B has it bad, but it is nothing compared to what the undocumented workers have been going through. When you live in the shadows and under fear of law enforcement for a big part of your life, it can mess up with your mental health. I wish there is a good outcome for them.
Unfortunately the low skilled undocumented workers don't have much options in life. But I am not sure why someone who is educated and skilled, would subject themselves to such a life. Just go somewhere else!
No.
“Sanctuary state” means state resources (including state personnel time) aren't being used to actively aid federal immigration authorities, it doesn't mean federal immigration laws are nullified or that you won't be deported out face other federal law consequences in the case you describe.
I am a PR in Canada and got it after have worked here for 1 year.
I have friends who worked with me at previous company in the US division living in fear of getting their lives taken away from them if the company fires them and they are in a huge waiting list for green card (mostly Indian and Chinese) and don't want to change jobs because of fear.
Almost all major companies have offices her plus a decent startup scene.
Or are you saying the visa itself is too hard to get ?
On the other hand, I guess that might mean more opportunities for non-EU immigrants?
Salaries are low, most of Canada has poor weather and unaffordable housing prices in the major cities. I guess if you're willing to stick it out you get citizenship, but a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western countries.
I'm also curious as to if and when the immigration situation is going to hit Canadian politics as it did in the US. The facade of being pro immigration is exactly that, there are just as many racists in Canada as there are in the US.
What's happening is Canada is trying to become more aggressive in the pursuit of tech immigrants that are tired of waiting for US citizenship. It's a sensible plan on their part, and the US can afford the loss. The US isn't suffering from a tech employee deficit, despite the propaganda out of the big tech companies that want cheaper labor. The tech giants are all generating obscene profits, and they can all afford to pay very high salaries.
Microsoft + Google + Facebook + Amazon + Intel + Apple = ~$165 billion in likely 2019 profit. Excuse me while I cry over their labor costs.
The Trump Admin + Republican Congress have barely changed anything in relation to immigration. The major immigration legislation speaks for itself: there hasn't been any. And the Democrats are about to take back to the House.
The biggest complaint you'll see, is that there's a long wait time, which illustrates the extreme demand for US citizenship, as the rate of green card issuance hasn't declined.
Ends up US citizenship is in real demand. It's also not a surprise that two of the most back logged nationalities, China and India, have the most populous countries.
It's standard of living is (size of house, consumer spending power) is better than any large country except the USA.
And the weather is not that different to Boston, Chicago, New York (for Toronto) and Seattle (for Vancouver).
Canada won't develop a racism problem because 20% of the country are already immigrants and Canada doesn't have a bible belt south (canada politics are like that of american coasts and the europeans).
I disagree, it really does. Obviously for someone from India they don't care that much, their standards are much lower for what a "good country" means. Don't get me wrong, Canada is a nice place to live. But it's not Europe or the US.
> And the weather is not that different to Boston, Chicago, New York (for Toronto) and Seattle (for Vancouver).
Those are the worst weather cities in the US. Your best weather (Vancouver) is some of our worst (Seattle)
> Canada won't develop a racism problem because 20% of the country are already immigrants and Canada doesn't have a bible belt south
I've heard Canadians express pro trump sympathies, so it's pretty arrogant to think that you won't experience any blowback from immigration policies.
I've lived in both europe (UK) and canada, and hands down Canada beats any european country in standard of living.
It has less social welfare benefits than europe, but higher standard of living.
Canadians prefer Toronto weather to Vancouver, and as I said, Toronto is no different to Chicago or Boston in weather at all.
There are pockets of racists everywhere, but Canada is literally the least racist country on earth. It's like saying California or New York will turn racist and become pro-trump.
You do have the prairies though and they can be as conservative as the Dakotas. (With a similar accent to boot)
For example, Calgary police officers won't be able to do marijuana off duty, despite it being explicitly legal at the federal level for all of Canada.
If you browse /r/publicfreakout you will see plenty of racist prairie meltdowns.
I really despise this kind of regionalism because it allows real problems to be smugly swept under the rug. I don't know where you live exactly, but people there most likely aren't inherently any more righteous than people elsewhere.
But the point was about Trump - yes New York and California might turn xenophobic, and then Canada might too, but it's not likely (too many minorities/immigrants are friends or marriage partners of white people in these places).
Europe is more racist and has always has been (witness soccer match hooligansim). They're limousine liberals (they don't have many dark skinned people except for UK/France and so hate "racism in theory", but don't have much direct experience with immigrants/minorities to become racist like many in the american south).
At this point with 50% approval rating, I doubt you'll see an incumbent lose 2020
And then there are others who are hoping for it...
FWIW, HSLIs especially from India are suffering because of policies by Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations.
Trump administration just ensured that every rule is followed to the T.
This may sound sadistic, but I'm glad Trump administration is doing this, because immigrants and employers will start feeling the heat of these insane rules, and finally it may lead to a sensible legal immigration reform. Had it not been for Trump, you'd have more than 95% of those HSLI waiting for Green Cards not utter a thing against the rules from the previous administrations.
Getting deported is not the issue. Problem is that every single day you wake up to this uncertainty that you may get deported, but you are not sure. And being a legal immigrant who broke no rules, adds to that frustration, of being treated like an unwanted immigrant in a country that most people are blissfully unaware of.
Therefore I would consider weather and environment also a bit of a personal preference thing.
no legal mountain biking
If the problem is only winter, Vancouver's winter can hardly be called extreme, since it rarely dips below freezing point in the city.
The elephant in the room when it comes to salaries in the US-vs-Canada discussion that young people seem to not realize is that, in Canada, it's fairly trivial for a spouse to get a work visa and get a decent income even outside of the tech sector, whereas you're more or less forced to be a stay-at-home-mom family if you're planning to build a life in the US.
But, assuming you are "clean," there are people to advocate for you so applying for citizenship should be a safe bet and would get you the guarantee of remaining in and traveling to and from the US for the rest of your life. If you intend to live here for the foreseeable future, I'd recommend giving it a go lest this administration decide to start trying to arbitrarily yank GCs.
If you are already a green card holder, you are already subject to the tax and other reporting requirements like a US citizen so the only real difference from the US perspective is you can't vote and aren't guaranteed to be able to cross the US border. It's that last bit that most people really want.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/freq...
"if you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien living outside the United States, your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you live"
And also stripping the citizenship of all the babies that one doctor or nurse has delivered over their career because they have lied at least once on a form.
I firmly believe that the current administration would love to change the rules on citizenship. However the 14th amendment is extremely clear on this, and the courts have consistently ruled for decades that Congress and the President do not have the right to change the laws to strip citizenship from people. (This was extensively litigated over laws against dual citizenship.)
Therefore it is no more reasonable to fear the current administration making citizenship revocable than to fear the previous administration taking all the guns away.
The most recent decision relevant to this topic was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslenjak_v._United_States in 2017. It was a 9-0 decision that a naturalized citizen who had made minor errors of fact in their citizenship declaration couldn't have their citizenship stripped because of that.
Between stare decisis and how solidly the court has been in protecting citizenship, this principle is not in any sort of trouble any time soon.
[1] https://www.vox.com/2018/8/30/17800410/trump-passport-birth-...
The law itself is solid. Whether a particular person with paperwork issues will be given the presumption of the facts being in their favor is another story.
The end result is people can and do lose their citizenship status pretty often. Debating whether it is strictly unlawful is really besides the point.
Not sure why one would not get citizenship when they have GC.
If you're ok with making 1/3 the money you'd make in the US, have 1/10th the opportunity, put up with really expensive living conditions and really awful weather, Canada is the place for you....
I left and never looked back. It just doesn't make any sense to even consider returning. Many of my friends have fled to the US because of the incredibly high taxes, sub standard medical care, high cost of living, etc for NYC, DFW, CA, NC, etc.
For H1B types coming from a 3rd world country it would probably feel like heaven but for regular folks the statistics prove otherwise, Canadians are leaving or would like to leave to work in the USA.
Just saying...
https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-ra...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-wo...
I'm a master level certified diesel mechanic, and the immigration group I qualify for is nearly instantaneous as well. Saskatoon province mining jobs pay about 4x what i make currently in the states.
If you're a long haul truck driver, welder, pipefitter or plumber, the biggest hurtle to getting into canada is picking which canadian beer you like to drink after a days work.
My spouse is an Architect and she won't be able to work in the US due to H4 rules and in Canada because they don't accept the academic credentials for her foreign university. I find Europe a little better option in that regard.
Common known resources like http://visadoor.com and https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/ have incredibly low quality, out of date, or just plain insufficient to get any idea for:
- how many I-129 forms were received and processed by each of the USCIS service centers (California, Nebraska, Vermont) that handle them?
- how many of those forms already resulted in denials, approvals, or requests for evidence?
- what is the throughput of each USCIS service centers?
Does anyone know where such information is available from a public or private source?
It seems clear that the California service center is completely overwhelmed this year with an ever-growing processing window (from the date of receipt notice, not even the date of first submission to USCIS) that has now reached 6.5 to 8.5 months to process I-129 petitions for a Nonimmigrant Worker (see https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/).
This means that if an H-1B petitioner received an offer from a U.S.-based company, applied with said company in early April 2018, got through the 1 in 5 lottery odds and received notice from USCIS a few weeks later in May 2018, it's very likely they won't be able to start working until November or January 2019. Nearly a full year after initiating the process with their prospective employer. Assuming said employer was able to hold the position open for a full year.
I'm of course ignoring the time it would take after receiving USCIS approval for the I-129/H-1B petition to schedule an embassy interview in one's home country, send the passeport for visa stamping, and relocate to the U.S. Which could easily add another month to the ordeal.
Comparatively the Nebraska service center has a processing window of 2 to 4 months, and the Vermont service center 4 to 6 months but I suspect these centers can only handle a fraction of the cases the California service center can. I've seen mentions on Twitter of case transfers from one service center to another but nothing USCIS announced publicly, meaning there is no way for a petitioner to know where their case is actually being processed.
More importantly, it's virtually impossible to tell wether how deep someone is in the processing queue, which could lead someone to withdraw and apply to another work visa (like O-1). Let's not even talk about the case where one would consider a new employer while in the U.S. under an existing H-1B since the processing time appear to be just as lengthy. USCIS has also proudly canceled its usual premium processing fees for the stated purpose of "resorbing the backlog" (so far, unsuccessfully) until at least January 2019 which means even if your company needs you to start earlier and is willing to pay the price to expedite the process, they can't. So not only are you stuck waiting to work with a prospective employer for upwards of a year (or more) but then it will take (an already approved nonimmigrant worker) another 6.5 to 8.9 months (or more) to be able to start working at another company.
People throw around phrases like "indentured servitude" far too easily for my taste, but just imagine having to wait a year to start a new job you've already applied to and signed an offer for, losing opportunities for raises, experience, networking, and advancement in the process. All the while knowing that you'll be essentially stuck in the job unless you're lucky enough to find another company willing to sponsor you again, wait for the lengthy transfer, and hopefully not be let go by your current employer (and unique provider of the right to remain in the country) in the meantime.
Microsoft has already opened their AI research branch in Montreal. Google Brain is in Montreal too.
I can see it becoming a more popular spot as time goes on.
What is the difference between a PR and citizenship? Is there any difference in what the country owes the individual or vice versa in either?
First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Among the people I know and including myself, the top driving forces are safety, good governance, clean air and water.
While living in the US has the benefit of higher pay, it comes at a significant cost. Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc.
It’s true that all of these have a common theme that they all generate some sort of income. However, for most of us, the income isn’t the driving force. All of us have a drive to express ourselves creatively and do fun things once in a while (mine dogecoin), the implications of the current green card wait is that we can’t participate in any of these for decades.
Canada is very appealing because of the hassle free immigration process. Once in Canada, there is liberty to pursue hobbies. These come with benefits of safety, good governance and clean air/water.
The lower pay is a very minor price for getting all of this.
Of course, the great Canadian conspiracy of promoting global warming to equalize that benefit may turn the tables in a couple of decades or so... /snark
https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/wdb4j5/75-of-the-worlds-m...
I'm sure otherwise Canada is environmentally woke, and America's coal barons could give Canada's mining companies a run for the environmentally unfit / socially unsound money.
This is very important for immigrants who have families. Basically, immigrating to Canada means you have freedom, stability, and health for you and your loved ones.
Lawyers can give bad advice, and you need to triple-check non conventional advice. I used a lawyer who is really popular with YC companies. He gave me really bad advise, none of it worked eventually and I had to leave US eventually.
Be very conservative and careful when dealing with Immigration laws. Especially with the current environment.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/trump-c...
Right now the majority of legal immigration to the US is based on having family in the US. The US has a much more expansive view of family unification than does Canada -- for example an adult in the US can sponsor their adult siblings and all of their children, spouses, and parents for citizenship -- which is not something you can do in Canada. Once citizens, all of those folks can then sponsor their extended family for family reunification migration as well.
https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/images/US_vs._Canada_1...
This kind of proposal would be good for people currently on H1B that would like to become citizens. However, the cost would be far fewer extended-family reunification immigrants.
Look at the bi-partisan hate for Facebook and Google. Regardless of how you feel about the privacy issues there, it is clear that neither party is particularly friendly to the needs of Silicon Valley.
While the merit based immigration idea is nice, I think it will fail for the following reasons:
- Trump is not putting his political weight behind it. It was floated as an interesting policy proposal, but he didn't put his weight behind it like he did for say tax reform, ACA repeal, etc.
- As mentioned above, neither party is especially driven to help Silicon Valley
- While it may help Silicon Valley and tech companies, this change also really hurts people who count on family based immigration to bring their loved ones into the country. I don't think it would be politically popular to cut off family based immigration to help tech companies.
I think if Trump (or Obama etc.) wanted to help the situation, the simplest path forward is through executive action. Trump (or Obama etc.) can easily change the priorities and internal policies of INS to make it easier for tech workers to come to America, within the bounds of current law.
The legislation changed significantly over the sessions. Republicans stopped supporting it after Reid reneged on requiring e-verify.
(0) https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_...
That's weird. I cannot even imagine what the rationale for introducing these restrictions could be.
Normally, working restrictions for immigrants serve to protect the wages of the local work force, but in this case they only make the migrants' lives less fulfilling.
You can’t have anything that even resembles a job, either paid (active income) OR unpaid if it may replace a paid US worker.
What if the renter plugs a toilet and you unplug it yourself instead of hiring a plumber?
Currently, if there is any crazy possibility, USCIS will reject your petition. EB-5 will take 2-3 years and you don't know how things will be then or even if the program will be around then. USCIS will refund your fees, but you will be out lawyer fees and investment.
Move to Canada. You can start your own company in Canada. Salaries are lower and government gives back a good chunk of developer salaries to the company.
You will also get some stability in life. As you get older, it is more difficult to immigrate to other countries.
One of my friend’s spouse is a Director in a company. Her company screwed up her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond 6 years. She had to move to H4 too.
What was the screw up?
What is even crazier is that both our respective employers will move us abroad with whatever relocation package we need to keep us working for them. We will take our jobs with us. Possibly establish teams abroad which we would've done in the US if the damn immigration system would've let us stay.
You pay taxes that highly because you're compensated that highly. Don't be under any illusions, you and every high earner in this country is UNDER TAXED. In any european country, you would be paying a LOT MORE in taxes on a similar income.
As the top comment on the article, you have clearly and succinctly expressed everything I have felt.
Sorry, I don't believe you. The median income in india is between $500-$1000. The media income in the US is $35000. You seriously claiming money isn't the driving force?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income
> Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc.
"Make and sell art"? Dogecoin? It's hard to take you seriously when this is the list you provided.
Québec is an exception here and do not follow merit based system. So the immigrants coming in Québec are not skilled or employable and is a burden to Canadians. On the other hand, skilled applicants in Québec are waiting 4-5 years for a permit from Québec because Quebec do not follow merit system. The new CAQ leader is also against immigration and has vowed to cut down immigration. So any startups planning to have an office should be aware of this. Québec IT employers are struggling to find talents because of the dysfunctional immigration department of Québec.
Now the highly regarded global talent stream is only applicable to large employers.
Startups still have to go the hard way. Getting an LMIA work permit will take 3-6 months and renewing it will also take the same amount of time.
Overall, Canada's Express Entry system is a merit based system. But the candidates do not need to prove their technical skills. Anyone with a Bachleor's degree, a good command of English and 3 years of work experience can get a residency in Canada. This doesn't necessarily mean there is talent. Moreover, a talented international worker might travel to many countries, so if you are an applicant who have travelled to many countries, 6 months express entry time do not apply, Canada will put you thru something called Security Screening which can last 1 to 2 years.
So the 6 months timeline are for people who haven't travelled a lot or worked at many countries. It's just for a less experienced Bachelor degree holder with a good command of English. Do not come to Canada for the money, salaries are not that great. Toronto and Vancouver housing prices are pumped up thanks to Quebec's money for citizenship scheme. Québec immigration is dysfunctional, so good luck finding talents in Montreal for your startup.
This only buys a maximum of 3 years of insurance (from date of landing). After that, unless you're living with a Canadian citizen spouse, you'll lose PR unless you move to Canada.
Has it? All that has been done is a study of potential H-1B reforms that is still under way. I'd bet that nothing changes in the next two years. The puppet masters wouldn't want it any other way.
On top of that, this has scared off a lot of companies from even looking at H1-Bs while hiring.
Its just a painful endless wait, which can get over in a few days or in worst case in more than a year
Ours is not a small company. It's a decades old US company, who anyone who can guess 5 companies on the S&P 500 would know of.
It is fair to call this increased scrutiny.
I am not against immigrants or H1B holders. Or anyone trying to improve their lot in life.
I am against the position H1B holders are in. And the effects it can have on a culture. Especially with the force multiplier of technology.
They are basically indentured servants. And therefore more likely to do whatever their boss wants, including morally suspect things. Like buy and sell American's privacy. Speak out or resist? You'll need to on a plane out of the country in 6 days.
I'm not saying this is a product of a particular race/ethnicity/identity. The moral suspectness. But rather the product of the position. Most everyone in that position would behave in similar ways to keep their position. Sometimes at all cost. Don't get it twisted.
So to me, the reasonable options are to either cut back on the program, or give H1B holders more rights.
I know a few others in my social circle who setup shop in the US when they wanted to move there. None of them complained about the "waiting time" but there were complaints about the costs and legal expenses to process visas/green cards.
So is it really that bad in the US? Because as far as it is now for me this is way better than Europe. Also no other country has a green card lottery where they arbitrarily give 55k random citizens a Green Card. I have been applying to the Green Card lottery for around 10 years. I almost thought this will be their rejection reason for my visa.
I think the US gets lots of hate but so far is the best country of the bunch. I might be wrong but will be doing more business and lots of travel to the US so it will either confirm my bias or reverse it.
It is very different from H1B visa that is tied to a specific employer.