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> A month or so ago, I took a two week trip across France and Spain, it was one of the most lovely experiences of my life, staying in great places, eating amazing food, etc. It was honestly about as wonderful and stimulating of an experience as I've ever had.

But were they really?

The thing I'm no longer afraid to admit about myself - I don't enjoy such stuff. I don't derive much pleasure from views of nature, don't like typical tourist destinations (for instance, last year I went to Pripyat, and liked it much better than Lviv or Kiev). I don't enjoy eating local cousine, I prefer regular commercial-grade pizza, thank you. I tried pretending that I like "normal" things for a long time, but this cognitive dissonance isn't worth it.

I still agree with GP here - if the things you do are fulfilling, you'll be less inclined to pick up the phone. For me, it won't be France or Spain, but it will be a programming side project. It won't be hiking, but it will be going out with an air gun and shooting a bit. I don't feel an addiction to tech then, but get me back to the office, and suddenly the addiction is back too.

To be clear: I'm not discounting the addictiveness of consumer-oriented tech - but I do feel that it's often easier to break the feedback loop by fixing the other end of it.

Yes they were really. It really was, literally, the thing in life I like to do the most. I live to travel and see new places, it's the favorite activity I ever engage in.

I just disagree with this whole idea that there HAS to be some "missing hole" that phones fill. These apps are addictive, that's not really a secret they are designed to be by teams of brilliant people.

It's possible that many heroin addicts have "holes" in their life that they fill, but it's also pretty much a certainty that if you take a random person and unwittingly feed them heroin for awhile telling them it's harmless, they're going to have withdrawal symptoms if they stop.

I'm aware of the Rat Park study and it's interesting but it's pretty isolated and hasn't been replicated, and either way it's just one intriguing counterpoint, not dispositive.

It's often a misconception that 12 step programs talk about getting to "root causes" first. They do, to some extent, but they always focus immediately and completely on total abstinence until that has been achieved.

Then, the "root causes" stuff is really better described as picking up the pieces of a broken life, and specifically a ton of broken relationships, since the one thing all addicts have in common is a large number of close relationships with people that they have ruined.

Sobriety in that context really isn't about getting to and fixing "root causes" to be honest. It's more about setting up a set of current habits, and social support, that are based around non addictive behaviors.

Fair enough.

> I just disagree with this whole idea that there HAS to be some "missing hole" that phones fill.

I don't think there is one either. I think there's a general sense of ennui growing in our society that is partly responsible here.

Or vice versa.

It's possible that many heroin addicts have "holes" in their life that they fill, but it's also pretty much a certainty that if you take a random person and unwittingly feed them heroin for awhile telling them it's harmless, they're going to have withdrawal symptoms if they stop.

What point are you even making here? You know there's a difference between physical dependence and addiction, right? Someone who isn't a heroin addict can easily stop taking it if they are weaned off. And heroin addicts relapse all the time after physical withdrawals have subsided.

> Someone who isn't a heroin addict can easily stop taking it if they are weaned off.

That's a bit dubious as a blanket statement. Perhaps you're creating a distinction without a difference?

My point pretty much sums to "addictive things are addictive"

Yes, addiction is more nuanced than that, some people are exposed to addictive things and don't get hooked.

But it seems like people in this thread are trying to advance this idea:

addiction = addictive thing + preexisting problem

Therefore, the solution is to get rid of that preexisting problem and voila, addiction is fixed.

I'm not sure I buy that. I'm sticking with the idea that certain substances, or technologies, are inherently likely to create habits and dependency in most humans who are exposed to them.

I count social media and heroin in that category.

>Perhaps you're creating a distinction without a difference?

There is certainly a difference. Your body, physically, will be fine without heroin. But emotionally, you feel empty without it, and as soon as some emotional trauma - stress, sadness, fear or despair rears its head, you relapse. I guess you could argue that emotional need is no different than physical need, but I don't think that's quite the point you're trying to make

>I prefer regular commercial-grade pizza

Have you considered you like commercial grade food because of the possibly addictive ingredients they use, like excessive sugar and salt?

I have considered it and, seeing such pizza made many times, I discounted it. They use the same ingredients you'd buy to put in your sandwitch; the same ingredients you get in "local cousine" when you travel.

I don't think you're talking about commercial grade pizza then. Do you mean something like Pizza Hut/ Papa John's or a local pizza shop?

Yes, both local and chain pizza places. From what I can tell, they do source cheapest ingredients available... which is also what every individual I know does, mostly from the same sources. And they do not seem to add any extra salt & sugar beyond what I'd expect in a homemade meal of similar quality.

I realize now that using the phrase "commercial-grade" might have implied I mean stuff like frozen pizzas in grocery stores. I did not mean that, though there are some brands of frozen pizza that taste quite good when passed through oven.

AFAIK there's a big difference between national/global chain and local pizza shop ingredients, mostly due to cost savings related to supply chain and the requirement for consistent products for the larger chains. Do you have any sources that local pizza shops and large chains use the same brand?

Please leave my local cousine alone, even if she is in the cuisine ;-)

social media is specifically designed to provide you regular bursts of instant gratification. Of course that's going to be more attractive to your brain than natural vistas, it's engineered for maximum impact.

When comparing natural and artificial stimuli I like to refer to this comic, which lays out the issue at hand beautifully: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/supernormal-stimuli/

The same can be said for processed food. It's designed to be hyper-sensual. Of course it tastes better than an apple, it's designed that way. But one is healthy, and the other only tastes good.

I’ve noticed after doing bursts of healthy eating that most processed food is _extremly_ sweet. Even food we think of as “salty” or “savory” is dominanted by a sugary flavor. This is because sugar is such a cheap way of making something taste “good” and since everyone is doing it your brain filters it away

It can take substantially more time than a 2 week trip to break addictive actions that you have been taking and conditioning yourself to perform over a long period of time. I agree, however, that sometimes establishing controls to limit or block your behavior initially can be helpful in breaking out of the cycle, and isn't necessarily self defeating so long as you are not depending on it entirely

You example of people going into bars and not becoming alcoholics isn't applicable because they aren't addicts... There's usually an underlying cause of addiction. But it doesn't have to be boredom like in OP's case. The steps you talk about taking towards abstinence are usually to reinforce different habits (which is done in addition to addressing the underlying cause). I do see the point you're making. I think addiction to your phone is a little unique. The behavior is so reinforced that it becomes second nature. Whereas, for example, picking up drugs is a much more deliberate/infrequent effort relative to pulling your phone out of your pocket. Which is probably why the conditioning of other habits is so important in that case. You have to deliberately rewire those deeply ingrained neural pathways.

Bakary said: "In my own experience struggling with addiction I've found that it is a symptom rather than a cause."

You said: "but there are other people who need to take affirmative steps towards abstinence, and avoid certain people places and things, as they say."

To clarify, you each are saying two different things; with Bakery addressing the disease, and you common symptoms (of failed attempts at trying to cure symptoms).

For example, let's say you're an addict of some sort and you get "treatment" (e.g., 30 day detox). But the problem is, you drink because X happen to you as a child. You "addict" (so to speak) to mask that pain. But the detox treatment never addressed that root cause. Quitting the habit doesn't eliminate the need that created that habit.

After 30 day you check out. For a moment, you're clean. In your mind, you've got it beat. However, humans are also creature of habit, as well as creatures of conformity (i.e., we "default" to the norms around us). When it comes to basic behaviors context matters. A lot.

You return to your old neighborhood, old friends (likely some are also addicts), etc., old TV shows. More of less, the same routine. Keep in mind, you're not cured, only __temporarily__ clean. In no time at all you're off the wagon. Why? Because your root problem was never cured to begin with. And being human means you assume the "norms" around you.

Sure, you can abstain from your device. But you still haven't solved The Problem (upper T upper P intentional). You simply grabbed a balloon. The root cause is now likely to pop out somewhere else.

That could be the case for some people. For many others, there probably isn't some other root cause. It's the damn phone (and the apps on the phone) that is causing the problem.

Well. Um. But... craving an unnatural amount of attention __is__ a root cause. Wanting to seek conflict __is__ a root cause. Seeking to reconfirm my confirmation bias __is__ a root cause. FOMO __is__ a root cause.

The device enables these things - take the device away and they will still exist - it does not create them.

It doesn't make sense to blame the device for what is ultimately a human behavior issue. The abuse of the device __is__ a red flag for "we have a problem here" and that problem is not the device. "Curing for the device" will not solve the root problem(s).

I am saying that these devices can cause issues for normal poeple who don't have other severe issues. Do you disagree with this statement?

For those people, the device itself, and the relationship with the device, is the place to look when trying to improve the situation.

There is also an issue of practicality here. Even for people with significant issues that need to be addressed, it may be practical to do things like adjusting how one uses the phone, as a stepping stone to actually fixing the deeper issue.

re: "I am saying that these devices can cause issues for normal poeple who don't have other severe issues."

Yes. But don't you see the irony in that statement? How "normal" can you be if a device and a few swipes "makes" you into something else? Sure, maybe without the device you could bottle it up? But for how long? And at what cost? Where does that "energy" go (to other bad habits)?

If what you said was true then EVERYONE would have this problem. As it is, that's just not true. In fact, the media often spins reports of those not on social media as being abnormal.

Don't get me wrong. We do have a collective problem. But it's bigger than just these devices, and simply blaming the devices is not going to help solve for the root.

> Yes. But don't you see the irony in that statement? How "normal" can you be if a device and a few swipes "makes" you into something else?

Your depiction doesn't match common usage of smartphones -- people check them 150+ times per day, and saying "it's just a swipe" is meaningless. But regardless, why don't we sample the population and find out? It's my understanding that the current scientific consensus is that modern media and tech is having noticeable adverse effects on individual well-being and social relationships. If this is not the case, I would like to know!

I don't see any irony. There are inherent difficulties involved in being human... I wouldn't find it surprising if regular people are susceptible to sophisticated tech that takes advantage of cognitive characteristics to maximize time in app purely for advertising dollars, and that this may have adverse affects.

> If what you said was true then EVERYONE would have this problem.

This may be true, to varying degrees. This is something we need to research and take seriously.

I think there are many amazing, good things about modern technology and even social media. But we shouldn't turn a blind eye to potential negatives or blame completely normal individuals for being affected by these massive, unprecedented changes.

> But it's bigger than just these devices, and simply blaming the devices is not going to help solve for the root.

I agree there are many factors here, and I was not saying we should ignore all the other factors.

By the way, I'm not proposing any specific remedies, if you are worried about that. That is a different conversation.

The root problem is just having been born.

There's two pieces- you replace the stimulus, but you also have to break the old habit/reflex.

When traveling, thus far I've skipped getting local service. At least where we've been, WiFi is scarce, and as a result the phone remains a valuable planning tool but becomes useless as a dopamine drip.

It's more like how I imagine a pocket computer "should" be- you can find WiFi & make a video call back home, you can look up information about the town, you can store maps and boarding passes, play music, snap reference photos of signboards, check in with your bank, etc. But 98% of the time it's slumbering in a corner of your luggage (and getting great battery life)

FWIW, this ultimately led me to a relatively low-data plan at home, 500MB/mo, both to save money as well as to slow the drip.