Why Did China’s Biggest Movie Star, and the Interpol Chief, Vanish?
newyorker.com
newyorker.com
I find myself agreeing with the confession: if you illegally evade $100 million of taxes by lying about the amount you are paid, you are betraying your country. While the Chinese approach to prosecution seems open to abuse, the outcome here seems actually seems reasonable: the actress pays substantial penalties but goes on being an actress, tax evasion is not condoned, and rule of law is upheld.
By contrast, the outcomes of the US system often seem perverse: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/d.... This is an in-depth NYT article showing how the current president seems to have used similar illegal maneuvers to avoid paying many millions of inheritance taxes. The outcome seems to be that if you have enough money, you win, and the ordinary taxpayer loses.
Is that true? People with more money have much more to lose, are more likely to be audited, and the audits and lawsuits are far more time-consuming and expensive. Also, I expect that the legal penalties are proportional to the amount of taxes illegally withheld.
But wait, wasn't disappearance the outcome?
OP said that he doesn't like things about their justice process. Did you just skim over that part of the comment? You want them to come back and say it again for you?
Due process, if actually executed faithfully (cough), is a method for trying to ensure justice is reached most of the time. In this case, OP is arguing that it looks like they got to justice.
I'll give you one more try, please put your open-minded hat on:
You're aware how the "due process" justice system works in the US in many cases, right? Plea bargain for 1 year or they'll throw the book at you for 10. You've got 15 minutes with an obviously overworked public defender to think about it. Easy call, you take the year. No trial, no jury, no judge involved.
There's more to justice than a binary "due process or not". It's a big wide world out there. Injustice can happen with due process, and justice can happen with no process.
You don't have any idea what the statement "due process" means or it's purpose.
It's purposed is to protect your rights as a citizen against a tyrannical government. It has nothing to do with plea bargains or ultimatums. It's about always having a choice of a fair and public trial. If you punishment is 10 year thats what you fairly deserve for the crime the plea bargain is supposed to present a more than fair deal.
The problem here is that that choice as it looks as not given to this actress. Therefore justice was not served. She was victimized by her country. Justice is binary these is none with due process. This was not justice.
Are there sources claiming that this was a false confession, and that she did not actually falsify her tax returns? I agree that in principle this is a possibility, but I haven't seen such claims. The New Yorker article seems typical in assuming her guilt: "In a nation of runaway economic growth, where tax evasion is rampant among the wealthy, what struck many people was not Fan’s alleged misdeed—that was predictable enough to be banal—but the startling way in which her case was handled."
Similarly, for discussion of the NYT article, I think it's generally assumed that the blatant manipulations of the appraised values happened, the only question is whether it was illegal, and if so, whether it's prosecutable. While you are right that the headlines are primarily because of the "disappearance" of a celebrity, some people (like me) are equally interested in the larger question of whether tax laws can be reasonably enforced without resorting to such measures.
Furthermore, persecution for alleged financial corruption is a standard modus operendi for oppressive states. As examples, Xi has been doing it to his political opposition, Putin does it, and the current Saudi Arabian dictator is another example.
As I said, this is theoretically possible, but I haven't seen sources claiming that the charges are a complete sham. Can you find some?
That's why legitimate governments have rule of law, courts, trials, juries, and due process.
It's interesting that you emphasize "juries" as the key element of a legitimate government. Did you know that Germany doesn't use them? https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/legal.html
Some even argue that using a panel of trained judges provides better justice than using a group of untrained citizens: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/what-am...
Is it a better approach? I don't know, but I don't think trial by jury should be considered a required characteristic for a legitimate government.
If it really was illegal, the IRS would prosecute him, but they didn't. Why not?
And if loopholes are so bad, why were they not closed and persisted through both GOP and Democrat leadership? It is the system that made tax evasion possible that's at fault, not the people that are able to and do take advantage of loopholes.
So they didn't find anything illegal neither at the time, nor at any time since then. I highly doubt this investigation will change anything.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/business/china-parliament...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Great...
Before modern nation-states, there weren't national armies so much as forces 'raised' by the aristocracy of civilians pressed into service, barely equipped or trained or even fed, and led by aristocrats who often had similar training (but better equipment). IIRC, Napoleon was the innovator of the modern nation-state military that you would recognize, in the late 18th century.
In technology, the difference was civilians with heavy or sharp pointy things (maybe knives, maybe pitchforks or homemade spears) and poorly trained soldiers with spears; a mass of civilians had a chance. Today the difference is between civilians with handheld firearms and trained soldiers with tanks, missiles, artillery, attack helicopters and jet fighters. Even for the heavily armed civilian population of the U.S., your fate relies on whether the soldiers are willing to massacre you.
Side note: The ottomans had standing, professional soldiers before that. The janissaries also served as police or firemen on occasion, but they lived in barracks.
It is okay for you to disagree with it, that was the story.
This event was recorded in Chinese history, and is still used to teach the kids.
Also ancient Chinese had lots of philosophies and schools of thought.
in the Old World, for thousands of years, farmers and nomads fight each other. Sometimes the former won, sometimes the latter won - don't forget, the Indo-Europeans were steppe nomads who were the first to tame cavalry and make chariots!
They see the due process problems as unlikely to affect them personally as long as they don't go looking for trouble, while many other things have been great for them and their families.
The big question is whether Xi keeps getting more aggressive or if he's replaced in 5 years with someone more moderate.
What exactly does this article say to stand above the news media noise? I guess it does provide some simple analysis of the general situation in China, but even here it doesn't deviate from the well known story about how Xi Jinping is moving China back towards heavy handed government control.
It's meta-comments like yours (and now mine) that are a total waste of time.
Perhaps that is your purpose, but I agree with the GP. I'm interested in comments that add value and knowledge; each discussion has predictable sniping like the GGP that is just noise and I'm no wiser after reading it.
Lately, I have been experiencing articles short on facts that restate the same couple of points reiterated 3 & 4 times making a snippet of info become several paragraphs saying the same thing in slightly differing ways.That is noise I can do without. Anyway, despite the disagreements below, every opinion/angle is(should be) appreciated.
Welcome to HN. It seems like half the articles posted here immediately have comments praising the article or the writer. Wouldn't shock me if the writers themselves or their social media team is behind it.
> There is no amazing investigative work, no deep unexpected insights.
That's how 99% of news is. They literally read each others news and then repurpose, rephrase, regurgitate and repackage it.
> I guess it does provide some simple analysis of the general situation in China, but even here it doesn't deviate from the well known story about how Xi Jinping is moving China back towards heavy handed government control.
All the media is on the same message? I wonder why?
Chinese society is extremely family-oriented. Xi Jinping has been much more aggressive with government power than his immediate predecessors, but his biggest themes are conservative and traditional. Lots of taoism and confucius.
I'd posit that their government doesn't go after (han chinese) families because it turns one dissident into 50.
If she did indeed evade tax why was there no trial? Why did she have to ‘vanish’? I smell blackmail from a mile away.
China doesn't seem like the type of country that would just allow you to skate off like that without punishing whoever they can who remains in China. I mean, if they are willing to go this far why wouldn't they? Fucking crazy.
The other issue here is misusing a neo-confucian value as a basis of China's corrupt system.
Again, attempting to conflate a single country's generalizations to a an erroneous and inappropriate label accepted by North American society.
You should've just used Oriental country.
I live in "Asia" and that kind of usage annoys me, too.
I have the pleasure of being and indian being taught Indian values and then growing up to learn that the Chinese / Thai / Other Asians were pretty much taught the same bull crap about respecting elders, and asking questions as to why will get you into a lot of trouble. Just my personal experience.
Among North Americans and perhaps native English speakers elsewhere, the term "Oriental" has been increasingly taboo and claimed to be offensive for decades now. I am not sure whether this is entirely down to Said’s Orientalism, or if opponents of the term have other grounds, but often saying “oriental” gets you a scolding these days and an encouragement to say “Asian” instead.
In the US it seems to mean Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a few others.
As for "Oriental" it's not universal that it's offensive. It's not used much in Britain, due to there not being a lot fewer Far Eastern people than Indians.
Similar example with wealth accumulation. If someone accumulates wealth without clear coordination and loyalty to the party, they'll be viewed as a potential or overt threat. Then they will either be charged/convicted of a crime that besmirches their character (which conveniently creates problems for their family), executed or increasingly just disappear.
But "your" money, "your" property is only as good as your allegiance to the party. The state is letting you "have" it, but ultimately it's theirs. It's only yours if you manage to smuggle it out to the US.
States have always hidden, tortured, and killed their citizens. Good states do it very, very rarely, in secret, and as an extraordinary exception to normal rule. Bad states do it whenever they like and in response to any discomfort at all. I think it was Saddam (or Stalin?) that said something like "You have a man. You have a problem. No more man. No more problem."
When the U.S. started droning its own citizens a decade ago, we libertarians said that this was a very bad, no good, horrible idea. You can't treat your own citizens this way.
Looking back, that statement was too idealistic. What happened next was a discussion about ticking bombs, people planning to use WMD, and so on. Nothing much happened. The droning continued.
Next the Russians decided to use nerve gas in London (!) to kill somebody they didn't like. This past week, the Saudis decided to lure somebody into their Turkish embassy where it looks like he was tortured, killed, and chopped up into little pieces. Now we have the president of Interpol vanishing. One hopes the Chinese are at least polite enough about it not to be so braggadocious.
What we're learning from this sorry series of events is that if a leading nation does it systematically and publicly, the rest will too. There are no special "The U.S. gets to do it but nobody else can" cards to hand out.
It is quite disturbing. I expect the trend to continue.
When the U.S. courts decided, back in the Bush days, that the U.S. Constitution applied not just to its own citizens, but to everybody we interacted with? Nobody thought through the consequences. If it applies to everybody, it applies to nobody. That is, whatever rules you can make about killing non-combatants in a foreign land, you can make about your own folks right here at home.
And that is where we're headed.
It's like we're having to re-learn the rules of nation-states again: why they exist, why they have embassies, why they're polite to one another even when they do bad things, why they keep certain things secret, and so on. In the constitution issue, it's the rules of the way the country operates, as understood by its citizens, that make them give a crap about it. (Not the rules as applied. The rules as understood by the common person.) You start publicly saying that it's a sucky deal? Soon enough people will believe you. In the U.S. domestic arena, if you treat all of your citizens as if they all might be violent at any time and deserve close watching? They'll live up to that expectation.
I don't like any of it, any violence at all. I understand it exists whether I like it or not, and I understand that international politics is a messy affair. But there are supposed to be some grown-ups involved that keep it all heading in a good direction. Those people have left the room. Decades ago. (Note: my comment was about trends, not current politicians. I don't argue about current politicians and try not to mention any of them if I can. Trends are much more important.)
So the thought that the USA may soon treat its own citizens the way it's treated the citizens of the world in the last 130 years whenever it's wanted to - e.g. invasion, mass slaughter, carpet bombing, coups etc (assassination hardly rates a place in that list) - is terrifying to you. Fair enough, I guess. But why (I get the feeling from your tone) has it been perfectly OK that the US treat the rest of the world like that?
I don't like any of it. But the interplay back and forth of nations doing horrible things like this to the other citizens is what has created all of these international norms in the first place. We don't want the Iranians grabbing people off the streets of DC and killing them in their embassy. We shouldn't do it to other countries.
I agree with you. Once we started doing it, then it's okay for everybody and there's no clear delimiter of what's okay and what's not.
It's not okay. This is the reason we're supposed to declare war before we use force overseas. You can't continue to do this semi-war thing for very long.
My only point was that in reality things aren't perfect. That's fine. If the Soviets kidnapped some person from Nevada and tortured and killed them in 1960 it was a horrible thing. But the international order continued. It continued because we had established norms. Countries knew that if they had to do things like this, it should be hidden.
What happened after 9-11 is that we've systematize a lot of things that should be done by exception-only. And now we gotta go back and re-learn why all of those norms were there in the first place.
It's astonishing that things don't even seem to be thought out. It's almost like "We need to get rid of X person and we'll worry about the fallout / cover up after the fact. First we need to find out how much evidence we left behind, how guilty we look, and what our options are before we admit to anything and start playing defense."
Something along those lines, at least.
In the eyes of many Trump is probably a dissident, haha :) (Obviously, Trump never opposed real oppression, and is not a dissident)
I'm sure one could also call Bernie Sanders a dissident, as he opposed real oppression. And he was elected to the senate many times.
Well, depends on how you see it. Hillary was the typical hawk ready to continue the war business as usual like Obama. Trump pushed for a more isolationist policy, which after Bush and Obama continuous war making is a breath of fresh air (and made some progress with SK instead of mere aggressions).
And for many people (not the 10% that benefits for such things and which most on HN would belong to) globalization itself causes a race to the bottom and oppression. In fact before the "left" (term used loosely) went full-on Democrat-lite, it used to protest globalization (remember Seattle, Genova, etc).
You can disagree with Obama, even about facts, but you were not oppressed. Trump claimed Obama was a terrorist. Yet, he was not oppressed.
For crying out loud Trump was invited the correspondence dinner when Obama was in office. He was rightly mocked, but he was not disappeared :)
But let's get real there were people in America who faced real oppression in the 60'ties civil rights movements. Bernie was one of those, and many of them served as elected politicians later.
True, my interpretation is objectively right, but I wanted to put it more mildly :-)
Though, if you don't believe on God-given rights and wrongs, it still falls on "how you see things" (and your interests), which is the whole point of politics.
>You can disagree with Obama, even about facts, but you were not oppressed. Trump claimed Obama was a terrorist. Yet, he was not oppressed. For crying out loud Trump was invited the correspondence dinner when Obama was in office. He was rightly mocked, but he was not disappeared :)
Well, people don't disappear under Trump either, so there's that. I made some specific points under which Trumps politics could be seen as better (being against the constant after 9-11 wars and interventionism and the pro-corporate globalization).
In any case, as a non-American, I mostly care about the foreign policy: stopping the hawkish attitude, and making a stand against "race to the bottom" globalization. I remember a time when the "left" were for those things too, instead of against them because Trump peddles them.
About that: there's a lot of parents looking for their children at this very moment.
Though it also depends on the part of the west and the time. The 50s to 80s was a good time for muddy state work in the west too.
In the 60s and 70s the Italians had certain pesky activists commit "suicide" by jumping off of police building and similar methods [1].
Delegating a murder or disappearance to the mafia (which in 80s trials was found complicit with the government) was also an option, as was using the far right organizations [2].
The Belgians had someone like Lumumba executed and dissolved in acid, something the French agencies were also known to be fond of and also had common criminals working for them when they wanted to git rid of a "state enemy" [3].
The Greek deep state of the 60s and 70s just used hired thugs, who acted "independently", like those that murdered peace activist Lambrakis in 1963 [4] (that was still under democracy, the Junta just continued the tradition).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Pinelli [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing#State_s... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Mesrine [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigoris_Lambrakis