The cost of a [programmers] chair | Hacker News Reader

The cost of a [programmers] chair

jeremyhutchings.com

20 pointsJerryH40 comments

I personally can't stand office chairs. Give me a sofa and a short table or a barstool and a counter, ideally both so I can switch between them, and I'm content. The article just assumes that everybody works best in chairs, but there are variations in how programmers best get work done. It's not simply a matter of running a cost-benefit analysis on how much to spend.

For those without the cash to drop on Herman Miller, consider what I believe is the lowest-cost, leanest solution to good ergonomics: the standing desk. Don't wear shoes, stand up straight, and adjust the surface to where your arms drop down and relax on the home row of your keyboard. After a brief adjustment period it's possible to find yourself feeling better, with better posture, breathing, and general well being.

Sitting in chairs too much is bad for your back. Ergonomically speaking, sitting with your spine at a 45 degree angle to your legs is harmful to your back, and it decreases mobility, even though people continue to spend large sums of money on fancy ergonomic office chairs.

http://saveyourself.ca/articles/chair-warriorism.php

Winston Churchill used a standing desk in recognition of their benefits. There are Japanese companies that have already implemented standing desks and standing workspaces. Fortunately they are simple, inexpensive, easy to implement and easy to adjust and adapt.

I've got one of these at home, my main PC has 5 monitors (throwouts from work, so most were free), 2 of which sit on top of the tower. I simply put a couple of shoeboxes under my keyboard/mousepad and use the top 2 monitors when I want to use a standing desk.

My feed and knees really hurt though, I find wearing shoes helps alleviate this discomfort for a bit longer, but eventually I sit down (for some more Back Pain). Do you use an anti fatigue mat or anything like that? I think I should try and buy one.

Yes, you should always be standing on a mat, do not do this on hardwood or cement floors. Fortunately they are not expensive and are easy to move.

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/558061/Genuine-Joe-Air...

I had one of those hollow doors with a smooth surface, and bought a couple of adjustable aluminum sawhorses (Stanley FatMax is a good option). I spent about 15 minutes making small adjustments to the height of the desk surface while standing on the mat, and using an editor on the workstation and keying the home row on my Model M. I ran the cables through the cutout for the door handle to the UPS and power on the floor. I adjust a pair of monitors to be below natural eye level to reduce neck and eye fatigue. The result is simple, easy to move, and works equally well for hand work like writing with a pen or mechanical pencil. Total cost: less than $100 USD.

FYI, I picked up the same mat as linked above at Amazon for a smaller chunk of change:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EFK9KM/

Thanks for the recommendation. I've been standing for several months and really enjoying it. Hoping this mat helps with the occasional foot/ankle pain.

I think I might just give that a go.

I have a regular desk that converts to a standing desk on my command.. http://picplz.com/user/stammy/pic/gntn/

Hacky, but it works and I can't tell you the number of other startup folk I've met with that have the same kind of setup. Although theirs is usually more permanent with reams of paper or textbooks.

I used to have a Herman Miller before I moved to SF, now I'm on a $47 office max chair. It's only so comfortable for about 2 hours then I notice my posture is horrible.

Nice hack, I like on the fly solutions like that, and best of all you didn't have to buy anything new. That's the origin of the setup I have now, which is semi-permanent. For a dedicated approach, I've heard people with a lot more money than me rave about the Steelcase Airtouch: http://www.steelcase.com/en/products/category/tables/adjusta...

I think the SF SimpleGeo office has those desks (along with a bunch of $$$ HM Embody chairs). Definitely a pleasure to work on.

We actually have these: http://www.geekdesk.com/

They are pretty awesome, but the full size ones are pretty huge.

How is the quality on the motors that adjust these? I've heard about those Geekdesks, that was a good business idea IMO. I think I still like Steelcase better just because it adjusts by hand and there aren't as many moving parts or a motor to potentially burn out and replace.

Gee thanks. Now I've got a big red mark on my forehead where I smacked myself saying "Why didn't I think of that?" It's not hacky, it's beautiful.

I actually replaced my chair today with one of these:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50178864

I'm 6'2' and this is the first chair I've had that's tall enough for me - the headrest doesn't hit below the neck. Hopefully it'll wear well.

It doesn't have too many controls, which is a feature IMHO. I've tried Aeron's before and frankly find them to be confusing and uncomfortable, but that's from limited exposure.

It's not a feature; it means your body has to adjust to the chair instead of the chair adjusting to your body. That said, I had an IKEA desk chair for many years and found it to be quite comfortable.

I recently replaced an IKEA chair with the Herman Miller Embody, and it makes a huge difference. What I've found is that the adjustments need not be made once and left forever, you can move the adjustments around throughout the day and vary how your chair feels. It's nice.

When I finally set up a proper office this year, I was too daunted by the prospect and cost of buying a proper chair. I just bought a used standing desk setup off Craigslist and a foam mat from Amazon.

I haven't had back problems so I wasn't the usual standing-desk advocate. But it has been great, and the low-tech desk will hold its value better than this year's fashion in ergonomic chairs. Highly recommended.

This is, of course, assuming that those really are minutes of lost productivity. Truth is, you have to get up once in a while anyhow, for various reasons. And taking time to move and think can be beneficial to code, too.

It's also assuming that it takes time to get -back- into the groove after a walk-around. For me, it doesn't. If I have an idea in my head as I approach the computer, I'm right in there.

I bought a chair recently and opted for a vanilla, non swivel, no-wheels model. The swivel function was useless to me in the previous models I used, and I found I could get better value for my money once the swivels and wheels were out of the way.

My chair is a durable, heavy duty cast iron frame with artificial leather cushions and is close to my ideal of a perfect chair for me.

I'd argue that the most important piece of equipment you can give a programmer is a good chair. Not only are the bad ones bad for you, but they break easily IMO. I'm 175 pounds and have gone through 4 chairs in 3 years of service. The chairs are conformable though so it wasn't that bad. But I ended bringing my own chair and when asked about it, I got reimbursed.

If they break they must be unsafe as well, I dare say there is some kind of argument there for sure.

Hah! You should see our chair graveyard, since I'm not the only one that breaks them. We have probably around 12 broken chairs in a corner.

Sounds like something out of Office Space the movie.

yes, we all understand that ergonomics are important. But adjusting the proper chair properly and desk height are just as important for programmer comfort and health.

How come there isn't much discussion of this? most of the hits on a google search for "ergonomic experts" are for 'expert witnesses' for workmans comp trials.

Because that's where most of the money is made for ergonomics experts, serving as witnesses in trials.

clearly. However, there should be some lower-end services targeting small businesses. I mean, most money in outsourced IT is made selling to giant companies... but I can still call up 'geek squad' or any number of services targeted at the small business market that may not give me the same level of service large corps get, but they are often better than nothing for people who know little of IT.

My question is where is the equivalent of "geek squad" for ergonomics? Hell, I'd be willing to pay a significantly higher hourly rate than geek squad, just 'cause I don't need the ergo people as often as you need IT.

It would be a good market, one small org could deal with a lot of local companies, they could also have a side line in 2nd hand chairs & kit from failed status ups etc.

Search for ergonomics training rather than ergonomics experts.

turns up a lot of interesting free information and chiropractic companies. also a few personal trainer websites. I guess that's about the level of service I got last time I worked at a big corporation.

I think everyone knows you are supposed to adjust your chair correctly. I recently bought an Embody chair, and it came with a link to a video on how to adjust everything.

Something I don't understand, though, is how many desks are around that don't adjust at all. I bought one for use at home and am going to have to replace it soon; its height is unusably high. I've found that if you can't adjust your chair, desk, and monitor, you might as well not be able to adjust anything.

Strangely, I have an Aeron chair at work, but of course, the desk does not adjust at all. 8 hours is about my upper limit for dealing with it, so while there are many times when I'm at work and really want to stay late and finish something, my body simply says no. When people want to work for you for free but the $20 desk you bought them doesn't allow it... that's kind of a waste of money.

(My company solves this problem by hiring more and more developers. So much for the mythical man month...)

but what is "correctly?" what feels best in the short term is not always best in the long term... for example, those wrist rests feel pretty good for a little while, but long term, if you actually rest your wrists on them, they will cause serious problems for your wrists.

As for the desk problem, Ikea sells adjustable desks (that can adjust from "on the floor" to "standing desk" in what looks like 1.5" increments) for under two hundred bucks, though you need two guys and fifteen minutes to adjust it. Me, I just set my keyboard on my lap and call it a day.

I have the Apple keyboard and was able to do away with the wrist rests. So much better for my wrists as I am able to put my whole arm on the table flat and not have to strain my hands.

my understanding is that putting your wrists on anything is pretty bad. Your wrists, I believe (and I'm not an expert) should be absolutely straight, like you are hitting the heavy bag. "there is no wrist."

unfortunately, the more you look into ergonomics research, the more you'l find that every person's situation of "comfort" is different. you can start with some basic guidelines (see my other reply to your parent post) and then work from there.

it basically becomes a dialogue with the user and trial-and-error of many different approaches/setups.

another factor is whether someone is coding for 18 hours straight, or 2-3 hours here and there throughout the day.

i've ran into some personal pains lately (14 hrs + programming sessions), so have done some legwork:

http://www.thehumansolution.com/ergonomic-office-desk-chair-...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu8vgHp3Cgs

ignore the fact both offer things for sale. informative and insightful nonetheless. good starting points.

Anyone used a kneeling chair somewhat extensively? I've been interested, in part because they take up less room, but they're always over my college-status price range.

I owned one for 4 years and it was absolutely fantastic for my back. It helped strengthen the muscles in my back leading to much less back pain in general and overall it made me feel much better.

The only issue I had was that it put pressure on my knees, which at 340 lb is not really something you want to do. Ultimately I got rid of it for a simple stool. It had the same effect since there was no leaning back and overall I felt that because of it I had a better posture.

My parents used them around the house for years and my mother still uses one. You need to adjust to them, but they are very comfortable after a few days. My mother swears by it. I've used for a few hours and, yes, I can see why. Your posture is correct with your spine vertical and straight.

I'm not sure why you say they take up less room, they're actually a little longer than a normal chair. Also, they weren't particularly expensive.

The other alternative for correct posture that I've been recommended is sitting on one of those large exercise balls. The idea sounds terrible to me so I haven't tried it, but I can see the sense in it.

Many I've seen are a bit lower than my current desk chair, and also lack the high back. All of which means my current desk chair can't fit entirely under / flush with any desk. Having something which can fit entirely under a desk would be extremely useful at times. Cost tends to be in the $200+ range, so not bad for a good chair, but also a lot when that's a lot of food, or a couple bills.

getting up to stretch for 5 mins every hour or so can be important (primarily hands and arms), even if you use an ergonomic chair. i find it helps the "flow" rather than interrupt it (as the link claims).

i'd also recommend switching to an editor which minimizes keystrokes, such as vi(m), emacs, etc. less wear and tear on the hands and arms.

there are many aspects in a workstation that can be improved upon. every little bit helps.

Any Steelcase Leap owners around? Lightly used can cost $300, which is a great deal.

Indeed, it's how you use what you have as well.

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