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Comment by creato | Hacker News Reader

I've had a lot of conversations with drivers that make me cringe. I've had a few tell me about how they've been away from home driving for 24-48 hours, sleeping in the car for a few hours at a time here and there. This article doesn't seem to mention this as a factor but I wouldn't be surprised if Uber/Lyft driver fatigue explains part of this study's findings.

My understanding is that the taxi medallion system originally came to be because there was too much competition in the taxi business, leading to corners being cut (e.g. maintenance) and overcrowding by taxis in certain places. Maybe we're learning this lesson again? This level of competition has brought a lot of convenience and comfort improvements over taxis. But from a big picture point of view, I'm not sure that this level of competition is a good thing. I almost wish Uber/Lyft were more expensive (and that money went to drivers). I'd use them less, but I'd be happier about using it when I did.

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My impression is that the maintenance burden gets pushed onto drivers and they may not fully understand how to factor that cost into their income. However, there are new incentives to keep the cars well maintained, such as the ability of riders to rate the experience and leave comments, as well as the fact that these cars are also the driver's personal transportation.

The dynamic pricing and monitoring of supply and demand help avoid overcompetition, but that assumes that drivers really won't drive if they are losing money. I wonder if there's app functionality for the driver to plug in their fuel economy/depreciation to show what their actual profit is...

> almost wish Uber/Lyft were more expensive (and that money went to drivers). I'd use them less, but I'd be happier about using it when I did.

You can do this already using the tips on both platforms, which go entirely to the driver. Unless your wish is that it were more expensive on a macro level.

I think the point is that if they were more expensive (and that money went to drivers), then users might think twice about summoning a car when they don't really need one, and give more consideration to more traffic- and environmentally-friendly alternatives. There's also the possibility that drivers might be able to make a reasonable living without feeling pushed to cut corners in maintenance, rest, etc.

Just giving tips to drivers can help out the individual drivers who benefit from them, but it doesn't shift the balance for the ecosystem as a whole.

Tips are an after the fact, unilateral, non negotiated contract. The only function they provide is a power trip. They should be discouraged. Industry where it has been traditional to tips take the freedom to cut nominal pay, and let customers on a power trip decide for the worker salary. They should not exist in the 21st century.

Maybe that's so, and I support a worker's right to earn a living wage as much as the next guy, but getting back to the states after being in Europe for three months I'm seriously impressed by how much more attentative to my needs servers are here.

And you know what? It's really nice.

The only difference seems to be the tipping culture.

Consider another possibility: people in the US are more afraid of losing their jobs than people in Europe.

People on the other side of the order are often one missed or shorted paycheck away from a cascade of late fees, reactivation fees, and overdraft fees with no way out. Even filing for bankruptcy costs time, energy, and money.

I doubt people in places with functional social safety nets worry about what will happen if they have one bad day where they can't fake a chipper attitude.

I agree it’s more likely this. And although service is better in the US, it does make me feel crappy because I know the only reason it’s better is because they so desperately need the tips.

Unemployments pretty high in the parts of Europe I was in. Whereas unemployments very low in the US. I know there's more emphasis placed on working here in America, but it seems like the employed would want to keep their jobs, no?

Especially if jobs are scarce.

I also think it's harder to fire people in Europe. But I'm not certain it's this constant unwavering fear of job loss that drives the better service, I'd put more emphasis on the variable tip than that.

But if the only reason it's better is because of the tips then how do we get good service without them? Because there's not much tipping in Europe and in the eight months over two trips spent in five countries there, service just seemed to stink.

Maybe there's quite a few cultural differences, it may be that Americans move quicker in general (a slower pace seems common in some European places where people like to just sit at cafes and relax), plus tipping, plus economic anxiety (although I think a lot of Europeans must feel that, Sicily's unemployment is something like 20%), plus attitudes toward work in general, plus the ease with which you may be let go could all add up to create the differences I've experienced.

But I much prefer eating in restuarants here.

In a lot of countries in Europe, it is difficult to fire somebody. The service issue is cultural, in two ways in fact:

  - in Europe a waiter constantly asking how it's going, is the food good, etc.. is considered intrusive, not "good service".

  - waiters not putting huge effort in cheaper restaurants is because, hey why would they when they're not making much more than minimal wage, and because every restaurant in that price range is doing the same.

So, if people cared, and a few restaurants started to offer "better service", people would vote with their feet, and all restaurants would adapt.

> if the only reason it's better is because of the tips then how do we get good service without them?

You tell us! Are you a a software developer?

Are you paid by the FP? Are you paid by the rate of bug/FP? Is the amount you are paid per metrics unilaterally decided by your employer with no way for you to negotiate?

If not, do you produce quality code? How does your employer get you to do a good job without paying you a random amount that they decide, after the fact, with no room for negociation?

I mean, I've seen plenty of software engineers with guaranteed incomes settle into their jobs and slack off so I'm not sure it's a great comparison really if proving your point is what you want to do.

> I've seen plenty of software engineers with guaranteed incomes settle into their jobs and slack off

Make everybody a contractor! Let employers vote with their wallet. You slack off, you don't get renewed. I've been a contractor for more than 25 years, plenty of happy customers, plenty of renewals. Legally, my customers don't need to pay me if they can argue I did not deliver what was asked.

But, we negotiate and agree, beforehand, what the work and what the compensation is. I would never work without knowing what the compensation is ahead of time. WOULD YOU?

But that's true for non-tip workers too. Service is a bigger thing in the US than it is in Europe. It's a cultural thing. Tips doesn't change that.

Exactly. Just look at Japan where tipping is a big no-no, but service is taken extremely seriously and puts the US to shame.

as a european who visited the US a while ago, the "fake happiness" as i called it was very offputting to me.

Like, people working dead-end service jobs act way to happy even when they have no reason to be happy. it seems so forced and fake that it actually gives me an unpleasant feeling.

I see little need why a cashier who makes minimum wage should always smile, they are people too and can have a shitty day too?

The insincerity of servers in US restaurants is shocking as an outsider when you first experience it!

You should have to tip a dollar for every star you wish to rate your driver.

So good drivers get bad reviews when people are cheap, not when they're bad drivers?

Eh...

Driver's get to rate the cheap (bad) customers appropriately.

Yes I'm pretty sure corners are being cut on maintenance. Many of Lyft cars I've ridden in lately were displaying a warning on the dashboard about an overdue service interval or some sort of failure (check engine, ABS, TPMS, etc). Of course that's just my personal observation but I've ridden in enough to be confident that it's a real issue.

as a former lyft driver my advice is:

why don't you three star and leave a message to the driver ("hey, your TPMS is on")

IMO society can solve cutting corners by bringing regulations and more competition, not less (more competition means service becomes a criteria when choosing).

In fact, I'd want those regulations regardless of uber/lyft/taxis. If individuals can lower road safety by cutting corners, that should be regulated, including lack of sleep.

Regulation often leads to regulatory walls around businesses, protecting them from competing with innovative new solutions, leading to lower quality of life for all. How does your worldview discount for this?

In my experience "regulatory wall" is created by not refreshing regulations often enough, and by corruption and lobbying creating regulation with the sole purpose of limiting competition, instead of protecting the consumer. We need to lower the bar to get rid of bad regulation (making a vote issue?).

We should work towards minimizing the abuse of regulations (we will never be able to eliminate it) rather than be afraid of adding more regulations.

The rating system seems like a much better answer than the Medallion system.

Every passenger (should be) effectively voting on the safety of the driver. No turn signals or engine light on? Subtract a few stars. If they violate a traffic law, 1 star and report for safety violation.

Uber limits the number of hours a driver can drive per day.

In my experience, almost every driver drives for multiple services.

coud a partial solution involve regulating the lift services such that they report (real time?) the number of minutes a driver has driven to some agency, and are required to check if the driver has sufficient undriven time left to perform a ride?

Seems like we could just solve the real problem by regulating ride sharing services such that they pay their drivers enough that they don't need to work dangerously long shifts in the first place.

how do you then regulate the drivers so that the drivers don't all go hang out some place where it's inconvenient to take rides and nobody gets rides and the drivers suck up a free salary?

NB: I did this to great effect when uber offered me a signing bonus.

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