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> Love the device but I can't get over how expensive it has gotten. A 20% price bump...

I got downvoted for posting this as a top-level comment, but it's insane to me how Apple's hardware specs have stagnated while maintaining the same price.

In 2014 I bought an entry-level Macbook Pro with retina display, 2.6 GHz i5 processor, 8 GB of RAM, and 128 GB SSD for $1300.

In 2018 I can buy the entry-level Macbook Pro with retina display, 2.3 GHz i5 processor, 8 GB of RAM, and 128 GB SSD, still for $1300.

In 2018 I can also now buy an entry-level Macbook Air with retina display, 1.6 GHz i5 processor, 8 GB of RAM, and 128 GB SSD for $1200.

I'm in the market for a new laptop and I'm seriously considering making the jump to Linux rather than paying the same price for the same specs that were available 4.5 years ago.

I'm sympathetic to the complaint about price, but if your contention is that the devices are basically unchanged, then why buy a 2018 model? Why not buy a 2014 model?

And if you don't want to make that sacrifice, then there's probably something different about the device that Apple is assuming is worth ponying up for the upgrade for you.

(For starters, despite the similar clock speed and processor names, the processors are not the same speed.)

> (For starters, despite the similar clock speed and processor names, the processors are not the same speed.)

of course not, it's at least 4 years older.

I mean that would not be fair to compare them. I have a Late 2013 Mbp 15" it was priced at ~2.200€ it was the "entry" model of the mbp 15" however if you look now the price is going to the roof. 2.799,00 € is the new price, of course the processor is now faster, there are 4 years in between (well clock speed is lower, but more cores). What else has changed? Of couse It lost it's sd slot, and also lost 256gb of ssd storage (if you want the same storage than the 2013 model you need to pay an increase of 240 €!) what did also change? the graphics card, it now is a radeon (and of course more clock speed, it's 4 years older.

So how did the price changed:

* Late 2013 15" MBP: ~2.200,00 € (cheapest)

* Curr 2018 15" MBP: 2.799,00 € (cheapest)

* 2018 15" MBP: 3.039,00 € (same storage space)

that is totally unreasonable. The processor does not cost 600 € more (btw the i7-4850HQ costed roughly ~400€ hard to say since prices of that processor aren't well known, however the current mbp uses the i7-8750H which is actually priced officaly at 400 $, so should be less euro, but keep it 1:1 it would mean no increase) of course memory prices gone through the roof, but since that's the cheapest component that would justify a maximum of 100 €.

SO tl;dr

Late 2013 to Current with newer hardware for the same price means a increase of 839 € or 599 € (you can even remove 100€ and it wouldn't be ok) if you can take the storage hit. and all you get is a touchbar, which you probably might need or not.

Exactly! This is why I'm quite sympathetic. I just think it needs to be laid out like this to make it an effective point.

> I'm sympathetic to the complaint about price, but if your contention is that the devices are basically unchanged, then why buy a 2018 model? Why not buy a 2014 model?

Why buy a new model at all? I have a fully-spec'ed macbook mid 2012 which costed 1600 EUR and has 512Gb HDD thanks to a 256Gb SD Card. Benchmark-wise, the macbook air 2018 is not 2x faster in any benchmark. Still a dual core, still 8Gb RAM, 128Gb without SD Card slot, etc. For a model with equivalent HDD I have to pay >2k EUR for the 16Gb RAM and 512 SSD.

It's pretty impossible to justify upgrading from this 2012 model. That's 2000 EUR for a Retina display, and that's pretty much it. Throw in a 1 Tb SSD, 32 Gb RAM and a quad or six core, and upgrading might be worth it. But that would mean a macbook pro 2018 in the ~3k EUR range, which is a different price range and probably not worth paying given that these come without nvidia discreet graphics.

With this product line, it makes much more sense for me to upgrade to a Dell than to another macbook.

sure Apple is expensive, but I think you're leaving out important details, like screen resolution, touchpad, keyboard (though that's been good for ages), OS improvements, power consumption, bluetooth and wifi, etc.

I like the new keyboards well enough yet often turn to my 2014 Air for the soft and quiet typing.

> OS improvements,

Mojave still works fine in a `2012` macbook air, which still does have >9h battery life (a new battery costs 60 EUR).

The touchpad is great, and it has an SD Card reader that can be used to bump its 256Gb SSD with slow extra storage for cheap.

So here I am, trying to find any reason that would justify upgrading a 2012 macbook air to a 2018 macbook air and the only thing that's worth it is the new display - sadly that's not worth > 2000 EUR.

I've been considering that leap for years, fear of the effort to get to a non-annoying Linux laptop always drives me back to Mac.

I finally took the dive on a PixelBook to try out, figured that at least the basics (battery, wireless, sound, video, command-line) should be less-likely to be an annoyance. However, at $1649 (16GB, i7 quad-core 1.3G, 512 SSD), it's not much of a savings over a reasonably-similar Mac config ($1799-1899).

I mean, I hear you and I agree (I wrote the post above you after all), pricing has been a bit tough.

But since you asked, some additional background information comparing the 2014 $1300 Mac to today's $1300 Mac (which isn't a 2018 model, but rather the 2017 model and prices.)

Geekbench 4 single/multicore scores are 30% and 42% faster respectively.

The latter can do 4k resolution output.

It's almost half a pound lighter, 0.2 inches thinner and about 0.3 inches less wide and less tall. Volume is more than 20% lower.

You get an hour extra battery life.

They're definitely not major, but it did get a bit better and with minor nominal salary increases the past few years (bit of inflation), it's effectively slightly cheaper, too.

Not the sort of progress you'd hope for. But to say they're the same specs as 4.5 years ago isn't completely true, either. It's the 2017 model, 3 years after the 2014 model, a bit faster, smaller, lighter, better battery life at slightly cheaper dollars. It's underwhelming for sure, the moment we see a serious step up from that you see the price increase by $500.

(The actual 2018 model is incomparably more expensive, but then the multicore score is 2.5x as fast as the 2014 model, twice as much SSD, 5k output resolution etc, but then it's $1800)

Fair. I don't think the actual processor matters much, I could have written "basic dual-core processor" to make my point. It's more frustrating that the entry-level RAM and storage options haven't increased at all in almost 5 years.

To your points: I'd rather have the old form factor and weight, multiple hours extra battery life, and a usable set of ports.

I compared the three entry-level laptops because I thought it was the most fair comparison, and because I knew the price of the 2014 equivalent. I'm actually looking for a model with 16 GB RAM and 256 or 512 GB SSD, and like you noted, that comes with a massive price gouge. I'd hope that at least the storage could have been upgraded on the base model over the last 4-5 years.

I think currently extra ram eats into the extra battery life, and Apple's been trading less ram for more battery life.

Also don't forget the less than 50% TDP budget of 7W now compared to last gens 15W.

The new CPUs are a couple of generations ahead and considerably faster and at the same time more efficient. Just looking at the clock speed does not make sense.

Dude, I bought a max spec'ed macbook air mid 2012 with 256Gb SSD + 256Gb SD Card, a dual core, and 8Gb of RAM, for ~1600 EUR in 2012.

In 2018 I would have to pay 2000 EUR for 512Gb SSD, still a dual core, 16Gb of RAM that is only slightly more powerful than my mid 2012 machine (I haven't found benchmarks yet that manage to get a 2x difference) to the point where it is just not worth upgrading.

If I were to upgrade it, I would throw 1500 EUR at Dell for a quad core, 32Gb RAM, and a 1TB SSD, maybe with nvidia discreet graphics. A similarly spec'ed macbook pro sets you at 3-4k EUR...

The only people I can imagine buying macbooks in 2018 are those not paying for them themselves (company laptop) because for an individual they just don't make financial sense - one can get similarly spec'ed laptops for almost half the price.

You are comparing prices without VAT to prices with VAT. In France VAT is 20%, quite typical in the EU, so the comparison is not fair at all.

There's VAT in many states and cities in the United States, although typically at rates much lower than in the EU. Buying a MacBook Air in New York City for instance will be at least $1,300 (combined VAT rate of 8.875%).

[EDIT] Granted, the exchange rate is not great, but it's definitely not as bad as you make it sounds. In the EU sticker price is the final price, in the US the sticker price is a baseline on top of which any ridiculous fee and unexpected tax can (and will) be added. Unlike in the EU you really don't know how much you will pay until you get the final bill...

There’s currently no VAT in the US, there used to be a VAT in Michigan but currently there are only sales and use taxes, which aren’t universal. Buying a MacBoox Air for $1,199 in Oregon will cost $1,199 out of pocket.

He's using "VAT" as a generic term. Think "sales tax."

Indeed you are correct, I'm not using the term VAT correctly. But here in New York you still have to go through three layers of sales taxes to acquire your MacBook Air: New York City local sales and use tax rate of 4.5%, New York State sales and use tax rate of 4%, and Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District surcharge of 0.375%

My main point was that it makes little sense to compare prices US prices without sales tax to EU prices with the VAT included. The second -more subtle- point that I wanted to get into but was really only skimming, is that the very meaning of the price on a sticker is vastly different in the EU and in US.

In the EU if you write 1,350 EUR on a sticker, anyone can walk in your store and buy that product at that price without paying a eurocent more. No handling fees, service fees, sales tax or any other obscure hidden tax. This is the law. Sticker price is final price. If it's not on the sticker the merchant has to pay for it. It's quite a shock when you first walk in a store in New York City while visiting from France and the price asked at checkout is not the one written on the sticker.

The law is the same for online sales, though shipping costs don't have to be included. Ridiculous $30 dollars "handling fees" or "service fees" on $50 tickets that you print at home, added at the very end of the lengthy checkout process, are to my knowledge completely forbidden. I'll be happy (in fact I'll be sad) to be corrected if I am wrong about that.

Ironically I buy from stores in New York or New Jersey over the internet and pay no tax in my home state. Adorama or B&H Photo

Fair point!

But average sales tax in the US is about $100. It's still a $350 difference.

That's not an exchange rate issue, that's a political one. Presumably you get something out of these high sales tax, in the form of cheaper education, cheaper healthcare, better infrastructures, or a better social net. Why would Apple close that gap by charging the American customers more? If you want cheaper sales taxes, vote accordingly. Don't ask Apple to cover the difference.

Though you could argue that if Apple was paying its fair share of taxes (for your own favorite definition of fair share of taxes), maybe VAT could be lowered. Again, that's a political issue, not an exchange rate issue.

You misunderstand me, I'm saying after you take out the difference in sales tax you're still left with about a $350 gap that has nothing to do with sales tax.

I've got no complaints about the sales tax.

Let's compare prices without sales tax then.

US: 1,199 USD vs France: 1,124.17 EUR. 1,124.17 EUR translates to 1,275.31 USD according to Google, at the time of this writing. That's a difference of about 75 USD. Not great, but where do you get a 350 USD gap?

[EDIT] That $75 difference could actually be explained by the extra year of warranty for the EU version. Not the greatest bargain maybe, but Apple is hardly ripping off EU customers there. At least not more than the US ones...

The EU has higher warranty coverage (2 years instead of one), and that is priced in. The second year of keyboard replacements surely drives up the price.

> The second year of keyboard replacements surely drives up the price.

Isn't keyboard replacement free worldwide for 4 years?

It's not free for Apple and it's likely cutting into their margin, hence the theory that they priced it in.

That program doesn’t cover the 2018 models.

Good point, this surely makes some difference, although doesn't explain the entire amount.

You can get 2 extra years of warranty for $250 through an AppleCare product. I'd assume the third year is most expensive, so the first year would be less than $125, perhaps $100.

And I'd assume they make a bit of profit on this insurance product, meaning the true cost of the warranty is less than $100, say it's $90 (assuming unusually low profit margins for Apple).

Further this product offers discounted service fees for accidental damage too, which isn't part of a regular warranty. As such, the cost of the warranty itself is likely to be even less than $90.

All of these are assumptions pulled out of my ass but I think it's probably safe to say the extra first year of the warranty to cost Apple less than $100.

The VAT in the US averages $100. That still leaves a $250 gap with EU prices. Definitely not as big as it seemed to me originally. Still I'd hope that gap may narrow a little bit in future!

As for the specific keyboard issue, I believe the warranty on that (and some other big Apple issues) is extended by a few years everywhere, so shouldn't explain regional differences in pricing.

The lowest-priced Macbook was $1099 in 2006, which is $1370 accounting for inflation. The $999 model was actually the exception, probably priced that low on account of being long-in-the-tooth.

Welcome to the world where shareholders are valued more than customers. Honest, we consumers used to reap the benefits of tech advancing. Now the shareholders do.

I think the entry level macbook pro is better buy than this. For $100, the CPU is much better, and very likely the build quality too. And everything else including weight, keyboard, ports, battery life etc. mostly the same.

The thermals on the entry level Macbook pro (non touchbar) is atrocious. It has one less fan than the touchbar model and runs hotter and unless you're in an icy cold room it's guaranteed to make your palms sweaty like a teenager on prom night. I would imagine that the new power-sipping i5 they've put in the MBA will run much cooler.

Every aluminum Macbook makes your palms sweaty, the aluminum body is designed to shed heat. Even a charging iPhone can get very hot just browsing HN. I don't think Apple has ever produced a machine that runs cool to the touch.

They have made one - the original Macbook Air

The new MBA has touch ID though, whereas the entry level MBP doesn't. The convenience IS a lot of value for some people.

Do you think it's worth it over the entry level MBP considering the difference in the CPU?

I'm glad to have the thumb sensor on my MBP but in buying again I wouldn't pay extra for it.

It is nice to use Apple Pay from my Mac -- the twice I've done so. I could always have opened the page on my phone and use its sensor instead.

Other than that, moving my hand up to the corner isn't much faster, if at all, then simply typing my Mac password which is pretty well wired into my fingers anyway. In fact I had made a small config mod to use the touch sensor to authorise sudo, and in the end I undid it because typing was faster. And my watch unlocks my Mac most of the time. So a nice to have, sure, but not as revolutionary as it was on the phone.

Is that price inclusive of VAT? US prices don't include it by default and it can be up to 7.25% depending on the state and city.

It can be higher than 7.25%, but I'm only 2-3 hours away from Portland Oregon so whatever.

> where you can get better specs after a few years without moving the price point.

Yeah you can do that...on an OS that isn't locked to one hardware vendor i.e. Windows and Linux.