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Comment by sifoobar | Hacker News Reader

I used to have no issues at all with EMF; not that I was very healthy, but I didn't feel any effects. Then I stopped entirely for six months while I lived in an ashram out in nowhere doing Yoga all day.

And sure enough, after coming back I could barely do 10 minutes with my laptop on a wireless network before feeling sick for hours. These days, I don't even use a cell phone unless I absolutely have to; and I only use wired technology at home. Working in an office or spending a lot of time in cities is not even on the radar.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I see people raving about their AirPods online, walking around all day with wireless antennas in your ears looks like suicide from here.

So; there goes the karma, I guess. I am painfully aware this is not a very popular perspective, but it's my authentic experience and this is my Internet as much as anyone else's.

Edit: See, I told you. Keep chasing your tails then, I don't care. It's evolution in action.

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Did you do anything to confirm it was EMF/Wifi?

Like moving further away because E/M strength falls off with the square of the distance.

Perhaps your laptop screen has developed a flicker, which gives you a headache from long use? Perhaps your eyesight or room lighting has changed so the contrast now strains your eyes?

Perhaps your study room now has a bunch of cars parking outside, and is filling with fumes, or there's a gas leak in your house, or a bit of heating/melting plastic somewhere releasing fumes?

Perhaps you're returning with a lot of apprehension, and getting a bunch of stress just sitting down to rejoin "work" and getting a lot of stress-related muscle / skeletal tension and gut upset? Perhaps it's a correlation - you make coffee and sit down to work, but it's the coffee you're not adjusted to anymore?

The world is an electric place - homes run mains electric cables all around, the atmosphere is filled with radio and TV and satellite transmissions, things like streetlights are quite electrically noisy, neighbours with wifi is common. A "good" signal strength might be in the region of -30 to -65dbm, or 0.000001 Watts to 0.0000000003 Watts at the receiver. Compare that one way with a 1KW electric heater - this is a lot weaker. Compare it another way to the way you can turn a radio or TV on and pick up strong signals which are always around and going through you - but I have no idea how the signal strength compares.

I appreciate your analysis. To contrast this, simply to bring everything into a larger perspective: we developed in a natural world without all of this electrical pollution. And as your questions suggest, it is very difficult to pinpoint what any one cause may be, including what state of health a person is currently in - and whether that is perhaps making them hypersensitive, likewise it could be a 'skill' or sensitivity they developed and can feel only in specific contexts which would further make testing it difficult.

>we developed in a natural world without all of this electrical pollution.

That big glowy thing in the sky might disagree.

It's clear that people's understanding of EMFs is low overall based on comments like this - where the presence of the sun and other natural levels of EMFs that make it through our atmosphere at different quantities, at different times, etc is being compared as equal to say electrical power lines, screens/monitors, CPUs, etc; it's naive.

Do you think that there is something qualitatively different between electromagnetic fields based on whether the source is produced by humans? Of course they can be directly compared, the field doesn't give a shit what made it.

There are lots of factors that make it different. The most all-or-nothing version of it would be to realize biologic material will burn up if you're right next to the sun, and you won't be impact by the sun "at all" if you're in a lead container that's thick enough (a faraday cage blocking EMFs).

Yes, the Milky Way does ping us with a pretty good shot of microwaves when it's above the horizon, even when we are where its visible light is not visible because of light pollution.

It's mostly wireless antennas, from my experience. Distance helps a lot. It's not like I was secretly wishing for this to happen. It sucks enough without having people spitting and laughing at you to mask their own ignorance.

This sounds relatively simple to test.

Get a laptop, write a script to randomly enable/disable wi-fi every $timeinterval (and log whether or not it was enabled). (Also need to block the taskbar icon, somehow... can probably just hide it.)

If 10 minutes of Wi-Fi being on is enough to cause noticeable symptoms, it should be quite easy to prove that - if you can successfully determine whether or not Wi-Fi is on, better than chance, you have one heck of a significant result! You could save lots of people, most likely, from nasty symptoms

And if not... well, you have options there too.

(Of course, you have to make sure you get enough trials- and fix it ahead of time, can't just stop when you see a significant result!)

For myself, it's the electronics in the base of a laptop that bothers me most that I must shield from - and I use a wireless keyboard to keep my hands off of the keyboard of the laptop, otherwise my hands start to hurt very quickly. I don't appear to be sensitive enough to sense interference or sensitivity to wi-fi etc, or it's too subtle compared to stronger electrical pollution, so I just can't perceive it.

That sounds far more ergonomic than electromagnetic or possibly temperature sensitivity. If that was the case then the wireless keyboard should be even worse.

I found at times switching to a non flat keyboard helped when they were starting to bother me.

No, this isn't an ergonomic issue - though yes, my shoulders are relaxed with the keyboard on my lap.

Also, wifi would be far less of a strength of EMF than whatever is being emitted from the laptop base - so I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that wifi would be worse.

Edit: For anyone wondering how I know this, I can rest my hands where I have my laptop, however if I have the EMF shield/cover over the base, then my hands don't start to hurt when resting them.

What are the typical radiated power levels from a modern laptop over 20kHz-5.8GHz, excluding Wi-fi and other radios? Does anyone have any references to share, such as E/H spectrums of a typical modern laptop, which has gone through EM compliance testing?

I was able to find one stumbling around google, if anyone else is interested. Lenovo X1 G3 from Sporton[1]. And a less comprehensive report from Intek, for 2016 random brand convertible [2].

[1]: https://fccid.io/2AJN7-TP00089ASI

[2]: https://fccid.io/2AAWC-ELL1102

Do you have a lawyer yet to sue the ashram? You were fine before and after spending six months there you have a debilitating disease. Clearly there is a causal relationship.

Unfortunately there hasn't been much legitimate study into this area, in part likely because there seem to be very few who are sensitive enough to 1) notice it, and 2) for it to bother them significantly. I have found people who just from talking to them, based on their life experiences, predicted they would be very sensitive to EMFs - and then upon shielding their laptop temporarily they could notice the difference; I do want to do blind studies related to this to dispel naysayers (who also don't have proof to the contrary).

>Unfortunately there hasn't been much legitimate study into this area

What would be your take on studies such as these two? -

Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity: A Systematic Review of Provocation Studies

https://insights.ovid.com/crossref?an=00006842-200503000-000...

Radiofrequency electromagnetic field exposure and non-specific symptoms of ill health: A systematic review

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001393510...

edit - they were picked purely as being the first two I came across in a very quick search. It doesn't seem as though research is that thin on the ground.

Thanks for linking those - I'll add them to bookmarks for when I have a chance to dive into this all more seriously.

I'd like to ask you though what experiences you have with developing your own self-awareness, introspection, etc?

If you can really sense EM fields of that kind without knowing that they are there, (a double blind experiment) then I believe there is a lot of money to be made.

Edit: apparently the most famous, Randi’s million dollar prize has ended, but I’m sure there are others.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranorma...

>I only use wired technology at home.

Do you shield all the wires in your house? Any powerline ethernet adaptors will be spamming radio noise everywhere. They are a real headache for ham radio enthusiasts.

Also, don't unroll sellotape. Is a wideband source that emits from microwave RF, right through the visible spectrum, all the way up to x-rays.

I think there's an element of accumulative and quantity/volume effect with EMF sensitivity, so perhaps not having heavily shielded wires is necessary; the arrangement of the wires could also have an impact as to whether they create a closed faraday cage or not.

I think there is a lot of psychological stuff at play if you only feel it off things you associate with electricity, but don't get it from unrolling sellotape.

Hm, I'm not sure about sellotape for myself - however there certainly are a wide range of EMFs and electrical (static or otherwise) to test for.

Breaking up various rocks is a good one. You can get all sorts of RF emissions doing that.

But then, you have no idea who I am or what level of introspection I'm capable of. Assuming thousands of people are just imagining it because the people who sell the crap and their hangarounds told you so doesn't make you look very smart.

I really don't think it was the manufacturers of radio equipment that have been informing me about the radio emissions of sellotape. It was an aside in an article about research into making x-ray images with sellotape as the source, so if radio manufacturers and their 'hangarounds' (whatever they might be) did smuggle that in, they are getting very subtle with their propaganda.

> Also, don't unroll sellotape. Is a wideband source that emits from microwave RF, right through the visible spectrum, all the way up to x-rays.

Wow, how does this work? I mean in terms of the mechanism(s) that cause it.

You mention it goes right through the visible spectrum. Does this mean I could create circumstances that would allow me to see the effect in the dark?

>Wow, how does this work? I mean in terms of the mechanism(s) that cause it.

Is called triboluminescence and is caused by the breaking of chemical bonds through mechanical action.

>Does this mean I could create circumstances that would allow me to see the effect in the dark?

Yes. Just unroll sellotape in the dark and look at the line where it is peeling. You will see flashes of light along the line where it is separating apart.

Also, while you do get the effect with normal sellotape, I have found that decent duct tape works particularly well if you want to see the effect a bit brighter.

I upvoted you - in part because I don't believe in downvotes, however also because I share a similar sensitivity to EMFs. I used to be much more sensitive, hypersensitive, to EMFs including magnetic fields. Now in order to use a laptop I put a protective cover over the main part of it, and I use a wireless keyboard; if I would keep my hands over the laptop keyboard - where the underlying electronics are - then my hands will start to hurt almost immediately and continue to hurt for a length dependent on how long I've kept them above. I have other related experiences to sensitivity, and hypersensitivity: in my early 20s I have audiograms showing I could hear at 0 Dbs at all frequencies, and another one showing I could hear at -14 Dbs at certain frequencies (the sound equipment couldn't test for lower than that). Laptop screens still do bother me, however magnitudes less than the CPU etc; I have found other people who are as sensitive.

Perhaps a few odd questions for you: 1) do you or did you used to eat wheat (maybe before the ashram?), 2) did you ever have ear infections as a child, were they painful at all?

Feel free to email your answers matt@engn.com

And no doubt the mob will punish you for it. Still, thanks for showing some courage and integrity, it's rare in these times.

Yep, started getting red itchy patches on my palms from resting them on the laptop so I moved to a stationary setup.

I used to eat meat and processed crap, until I stopped I had issues with wheat. Now that I'm on a vegan organic diet I have no issues. Could be that eating meat and poison messed up my intestines to the point where wheat became a problem.

The only weird thing with my hearing that I know of is that I'm missing a band of frequencies entirely. I don't have a good explanation for that one. I have better directional hearing than most, but difficulties following conversations in noisy environments.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure the sensitivity isn't the actual problem. As long as I keep myself out of harms way; I feel better than I ever did before, and it keeps improving.

The problem is that we've built a society on top of technology that's harmful to humans, despite all sorts of warnings along the way.

>The only weird thing with my hearing that I know of is that I'm missing a band of frequencies entirely. I don't have a good explanation for that one.

That's normal hearing loss. You'll have damaged or be missing some stereocilia of that resonant length.

Buy the book "Hearing Equals Behaviour: Updated and Expanded" (is on Amazon) if you want to learn more about sound and hearing, and things like hypo-sensitivity. Physical damage is certainly a possibility, however your statement of "that's normal hearing loss" is ill informed/ignorant and/or arrogant; that fits with your other responses in this thread, so it's not surprising.

>your statement of "that's normal hearing loss" is ill informed/ignorant and/or arrogant

Frequencies going missing is a completely and utterly standard symptom of normal hearing loss.

Yes, I said "physical damage is certainly a possibility" before pointing out that there are other ways a person can have/developed a hypo-sensitivity to certain frequencies, which you'll find out in more detail if you read the book I referenced above.

I just looked up the book and the auditory integration training it promotes. Getting a very strong smell of woo from the whole thing. Do you make any money from it?

>The American Academy of Pediatrics and three other professional organizations consider it an experimental procedure. The New York State Department of Health recommends that it not be used to treat young children with autism.[3] The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has banned the Audiokinetron, the original device used to perform AIT, from importation into the U.S. due to lack of evidence of medical benefit.[1] The American Speech-Language-Hearing Association has concluded that AIT has not met scientific standards for safety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_integration_training

No, I don't make money off of it - however I have benefit greatly from it myself, and I saw it greatly benefit others. In my early 20s I had developed a severe hypersensitivity to sound (hyperacusis) after being prescribed a medication. Audiograms that followed showed that I could hear at 0 Dbs across all frequencies, and a later one showed many that I could hear below 0 Dbs, and a few at -14 Dbs (the equipment couldn't check lower than that). The AIT sound therapy undid all of that (and more, however you're not a receptive audience I care to share that with/spend the effort writing it out here to you).

Although I appreciate skepticism, your level of research you're presenting is fairly shallow and so I don't really feel like engaging further with you right now. Once again, based on your other arrogant answers, it's not surprising you'd get a "strong smell of woo" from it. The process of knowledge spreading through society takes time, it takes time for things become mainstream. Another example I'll bring up related to knowledge taking time getting to mainstream, with more concrete biological evidence available to reference (as well as concepts already having been in society for a long time) is related to stem cells/regenerative medicine. Stem cells will heal injuries, regenerate tissue. Even though this is the case, assuming an evolved process is used (meaning proper/adequate training etc) my physician absurdly still didn't believe that the impact I had personally to treat pain had healed anything or would be permanent; and that's primarily because he hadn't encountered anyone who had had went for a stem cell treatment before, even though there have been doctors doing it and evolving the process for 18 years now - and from doctors doing it, they have said it likely won't become mainstream for perhaps even 15 more years. Anyway, I'm writing this out more for my benefit since I don't think you'll actually understand the connection I'm trying to make. P.S. The US had stem cell research ban for a long time. Also, that Wiki URL has a surprisingly scarce/limited amount of information on it. Once again, I'll refer you to the book, Hearing Equals Behaviour.

>Although I appreciate skepticism

Well, this gave me a laugh at least.

Glad you at least have a sense of humour, even if perhaps your critical thinking is lacking - it's likely you're just not motivated or interested enough in the topic to be able to have a deeper conversation around it, yet still replying as if you're somehow an expert on it or more knowledgable/experienced about it than I am.

My sense of humour does keep me going.

I assume you may have found me to be acerbic so far, given your repetitive comments on what you suppose to be my character. I apologise for this, I just get very prickly around woo, having friends who are now dead because of it.

Now you may get upset at me calling this woo.

So lets look at the website of the AIT institute (https://www.aitinstitute.org) and see what they claim AIT is a medical treatment for.

So, here is their list of things that they say AIT can treat; ADHD, Aggression, Anxiety, APD - Auditory Processing, Apraxia, Aspergers Syndrome, Autism, Brain Injury, Depression, Developmental Delays, Down's Syndrome, Dysgraphia, Dyslexia, Echolalia, Head Banging, Head Injury, Hyperactivity, Hyperacute Hearing, Hyperlexia, Language Disorder, Learning Disabilities, Oppositional Defiance, Pervasive Dev. Delay, Reading Challenges, Sensory Processing, School Behavior, School Performance, Sound Sensitivity, Speech and Language, Speech Delay, Stroke, Stuttering, Tinnitus, Vaccine Injury, and last but not least, the Vestibular System.

I must say, that is quite the array. I pointed my bullshit detector at it and the needle fell off.

You have said repeatedly on here that I am ill informed, arrogant and ignorant. That is ok, you are fully entitled to that opinion.

Especially since I think that you help to tend the horse of Pestilence as a side gig.

Now please have a lovely day, and do try to get through it without feeding people any more erroneous nonsense.

edit - Been poking through that site a bit more and I just saw the list of links to things they consider related. Is all homeopathy and antivaxx shit. These are dangerous bastards. In all seriousness, please stop promoting them.

Starbeast. I really understand you my friend. I agree with you.. i am also hypercausis and it is severe. Can you tell me what type of stem cells you had and how much you are improved? Can you tell you are cured? I believe stems are very strong. People dont agree with me.. i have found your comment and i was suprised someone got this.. how is your hypercausis now? Thanks

Hi mate. Sorry this was very complicated english for me, pls forgive me. I couldnt understand the topic. Did you get stem cell and greatly improved? Thanks

Hi loceng. I am glad you got better from severe hypercausis. I was thinking no cure for it.. i mean maybe we cannot call it cure but lets say treatment.. can you please tell me what type of sten cells you got and how much better you are now?do you have middle ear problems now and any sensitivity? Can you love totally normal? Thanks

I seem to have a troll or two following me around downvoting me, likewise people who lack a critical mind and compassion will impulse downvote things that seem kookie to them - simply because it's outside their realm of experiences.

The reason I asked about wheat is that it acts like an opiate for some people, and so if you consumed it most of your life and then stopped - I theorize, in part, that your sensitivity level and nervous system set its baseline having developed with that numbing aspect of the opiate - and now without that numbing your nervous system is hypersensitive.

So you did or didn't have any ear infections? :P

Re: Missing band - you could be hypo-sensitive at a specific frequency or range. You can do an audiogram to check for hearing imbalances, checking how LOW of a Dbs you hear at different frequencies in each ear; at different/certain frequencies of imbalance you can predict with 100% accuracy a set of behaviours that person may have - there's a book on Amazon called "Hearing Equals Behaviour: Updated and Expanded" if interested in reading more about it; there's a sound therapy to help the brain unlock the sensory imbalances, letting/helping/allowing it find equilibrium again.

Not thinking the sensitivity is a problem in itself, the lack of awareness and disconnect that many people seem to have is an issue; and some of us who seem to be more sensitive, perhaps from a natural fragility or due to whatever environmental or developmental circumstances, are more impacted by EMFs.

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