Ask HN: Am I too dumb for life, CS and STEM?

First,HN isn't a good place to seek help regarding you suicidal thoughts,which you should definetly see someone about.

You're over estimating too many things and using too much emotion in your analysis. Objectively speaking,you should define your life goals first and evaluate your abilities.

In my opinion,for "modern" or any other life,your career is primarily important to take care of yourself and your dependents. Even homeless people lead a life worth living. Life can always get worse or better.

Yes,natural abilities are imoortant but perseverance and wit are more decisive in succeeding(even in programming). Therein lies your weakness based on what I gather from your question. The fact that you gave up to easily and didn't attempt to at least "fake it till you make it" is a big problem.

I don't consider myself talented in STEM either but I am confident I can debug myself out of a segfault most days,primarily because of the ridiculous amount of time I spent with C and gdb debugging simple code mistakes. I don't know if I'd make a good programmer but since they want uni education in compsci,I focused in IT fields which is working out great for me.

In the end,I think you'll do fine in general. I don't know if STEM or compsci is for you based on what you mentioned but my advice is to at least persistently pursue your dreams. I would also highly recommend investing in relationships with people(personal,academic and professional) life is too hard on your own.

I've recently been to a psychologist, so yeah, about the suicidal part.

I understand what you mean, but it's just so hard for me to keep up with other people. I am just awkward and I do not know how to interact with them. I literally have a relationship maintenance problem, in a way :D

>In the end,I think you'll do fine in general. I don't know if STEM or compsci is for you based on what you mentioned but my advice is to at least persistently pursue your dreams. I would also highly recommend investing in relationships with people(personal,academic and professional) life is too hard on your own.

Indeed. Thanks a lot for replying and for the encouraging message:)

Well, selfhating thoughts are TRICKY... Trust me, I'm pro on the subject. :) The tricky part is: you can never be sure that you are objective about yourself. 90% of the time this bad thinking is linked to hormons.

The thing with hormos is this: WHen chemistry kicks in, you start to paint EVERYTHING in black colors, your mind just switches circuits and you can not reason with it (some of the pathways are just off). So immediate advice to you: well... no metter what I say, your brain will process it depending on what type of hormon reaction is dominant in your body :) So, most of the time logical advice will not help.

I envy your 19years old... I got to know logarithms in my 30... and started to code at the same time... Danm I wish I started earlier... I would have be Einstein or he would have been second Me. :))

Remember one thing: you can NEVER be sure that your ranking of yourself is objective. It might be genetically programmed into you to struggle in that particula age...

Remember Darwin: no metter what keep existing that's how you win in the long run.

Practical advice: Start from the beginning. Find a math book for school and start again. Page after page. If stuck, find another book of the same category... and so on.. I used to read about 40 (no joke) books on linear algebra before my first undersanding kicked in. (mind you 90% of those were abandoned in their first 1/5 text, cause I just stopped understanding the material (it got too complex). Of those 40 books only once I was able to finish a book with complete understanding. (it was the last of the bunch :)

>. I would have be Einstein or he would have been second Me. :))

This made me laugh :D

>Practical advice: Start from the beginning. Find a math book for school and start again. Page after page. If stuck, find another book of the same category... and so on.. I used to read about 40 (no joke) books on linear algebra before my first undersanding kicked in. (mind you 90% of those were abandoned in their first 1/5 text, cause I just stopped understanding the material (it got too complex). Of those 40 books only once I was able to finish a book with complete understanding. (it was the last of the bunch :)

Oh, wow, that's a hell of a lot of books. I'll look into it for sure. After reading or quasi-reading all of those books, did they change the way you thought?

Thanks for replying :)

Of course they have changed me. In what ways? 1. I know that I can learn anything. BUTTTT I never rush. If you have a deadline, it will ruin everything. No rush, no deadline. I learn because I LOVE it. I'm high when I start to undestand complex subject, I wasn't able even to be able to think about. Like entropy, "pull backs", probabilities ect.

No time limits, no deadlines for learning.

2) If you have a goal to reach some point of undestanding... that's not good either. Goals MUST NOT define you. What must define you - activities you like to do. If you set goals you'll never reach them (that's life) and you'll feel miserable. But if you just like doing things, how can it ruin you? No metter what goals you would achieve you still had a great time doing the thing (achieving)... thus you'll die of old age having spend your life doing fun things. No goals reached? Who cares? Fuck'em!

THere is one more thing i've learned. I got to have an ability to spot the exact time I loose the sence of the subjet. It's like: you read, read, undestande that and this, but then new chapter and you lose the meaning of the subject (some times it's authors falt, he just skipped something trivial, but you are dumb and don't know "trivial things" like "entropy maximisation principle" :)

WHen you feel you're losing it, stop, rewind, read again from the beginning. (THAT is vital!) Everty book starts at page 1, read every book from this page, never skip even if you know what's there (it's repetition what is important and small things you might miss if you skip, what's important).

Repetition of the same thing over and over in different words in diferent font, book, ask internet in the middle of it about some tricky parts...

mm, sorry for the delay. 1)40 books on Linear algebra? You know why? Books on math aren't meant to be read as some literature. THey are hard, and the more abstract, the more value they have, but the harder to read they become. You just need an author which will find a key into your ignorance. They all say same thing (linear algebra), but in different words, that's a key: different wording. You just need to find "your wording".

another thing I started to understang is that, in school children DON"T know what they are doing. They know the patterns in equations but, hell no, they don't undestand why and what's it all about. The success of human math is based in the ability of the founding fathers to invent mathematica writing notation which can be taught to school studends without explaining them why and how it works.

Riemann integral? I bet NO ONE understand what it is in reality on this planet. Evene those who got A+ on the subject in school. They were able to pass their exams because they are good at PATTERN recognition (learining rules to mindlessly shift things around in the equation).

I hate mindless math magic. I just stop and throw the book out. I need REASON why Integral was invented in the first place, how it's different from all other integrals, i leave the calculation to PC. I hate caltulation! I need reasons. I hate learning patterns! I need mindful math manipulation where I understand each bit, every operation. You are old enough to follow this path, leave pattern juggling for A+ students. Stay with us: dubm fucks who can't understand why we can divide one equation by another! ANd that does it mean to "divide equation by another".

That is hard path, but it's fun once you leave your ego in the trash. Ego is the killer. From now on tell every one of you stupidity (I always do), this throws the load off your shoulders and you can ask any stupid question whithout the fear of being discovered as a stupid fuck. :)

Don’t lose hope! Just because you do poorly in school does NOT mean you are not smart.

I joined the US Navy and went to Navy Nuclear power school, I did so poorly that the instructors started writing “recruitment error” on my wrong math test answers.

Now? I work for the #1 cyber security company and have an amazing life, with no college degree.

What changed? I was diagnosed with ADD, prescribed aderral and that made all the difference.

Find out what is keeping you down, solve it, and get the career of your dreams!

Seconding this, have you ever been evaluated for ADD/ADHD? If you feel like you are constantly failing to achieve your potential, can't focus on one thing long enough to be successful, intimidated by hard work/the grind, find simple but boring things like remembering to do chores difficult, you may be dealing with this issue. Speak to a doctor about it (even though it's scary - do it! You'll be glad you did if this describes you). Here is a link where people talk about what it's like: https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-know-if-I-really-have-ADHD-AD...

I visited a psychologist recently, she told me that because I didn't exhibit many symptoms when I was younger I probably do not.

The loosing things around and lack of situational awarness is something that doesn't resonate with me at all. I'm more of a massive procrastinator, though.

So I do not know.

Thanks for the link, it was really interesting to read other people's experiences!

First off, don't kill yourself. If you feel you need to ask for help on that issue please, before you head in that direction call the suicide prevention hotline for Spain. 717 003 717

Second, it doesn't matter if you're dumb or not, there is a place for you. Even if most of the jobs you're think of are automated there are jobs that you haven't thought of that won't be automated.

Third, which follows closely to the second, you don't have to do CS. You can force it and struggle which many times seems to be what programming is - finding the bug, figuring out the solution. People have succeeded simply because they didn't give up, or because they went for in depth help to get over the hump. BUT if you want to go in a different direction you should keep in mind that there will always, _always_ be a human doing something.

I seriously hope someone else comes by with better advice but you should understand that there is a path just for you and as long as you don't completely give up you'll get to a good place.

You are not dumb, you simply have depression. And you didn’t get depressed because you failed, you failed because you got depressed.

No amount of thinking will get you out of this. You need professional help and medication. Life will get better quickly after that and you will be able to fulfill your potential, whatever it is.

I too went through a similar phase in life during college where I felt worthless, completely socially inept, and suicidal.

The major thing you need to realize is that your self-worth is not tied to what you do. Even some of the most successful people in the world feel like a failure at times - this is because they are basing their worth on what they do, not on who they are. And that is a trap. As a famous book says, you are "fearfully and wonderfully made", and this is something you need to internalize - that you are a unique human being with experiences that no one else will ever have. You have two loving parents who recognize this fact. I can hear you at this point raising an objection, "But that's just becaus-". Stop that. Tune out of the negative self-talk and replace it with positive self-talk.

At this stage of life, a lot of things are happening that are adding to your stress. Don't give up. You'll find that this seemingly hopeless situation is a case of "this too, shall pass".

Now for something practical. You say that you feel that dumb. I did too, and sometimes still do. Why not put some of those feelings of inadequacy to work? If you're of lesser intelligence, it means you will need to work much harder to reach a average level of performance. With this mindset, I soon surpassed my classmates in college, despite being a very slow learner and a person of below-average intelligence.

I'm now working at a famous company as a robotics software engineer, and loving every moment of it. Hard work pays off, even if you're of lower than average intelligence. Take small steps towards your goals. As one author put it, "Little by little, one travels far."

General suggestion that I heard from multiple people is to do something that you enjoy and the money will typically come to you. Someone recommended "what color is your parachute" book to figure out what you might want to do for career. Also, even thought it's a US website, Occupational Outlook Handbook site is a good reference too.

I went to school for CS and didn't like it. I'm in security now and the pay is pretty good at least in US. I know I could make more if I was a developer but I know I'm happier where I am so who cares. It's better to be in a happy mental state than constantly miserable. At 19 you have a long life ahead of you. And even if you want to get a job as a developer, study on your own at you own pace. Know your limitations and set goals that are realistic, like working for any company instead of the ones everyone wants to work for.

I'm happy you found a good career in security. I understand what you mean, having said so, it's really hard to find a different life path different from the one I use to want to have because I feel really lost (and I become completely insecure) whenever I think about it.

This is something I must research and "decide" by myself, but needless to say, it's hard.

Thanks for replying and for sharing your personally story :)

You're placing an awful lot of pressure on being in CS - there are many other careers that have good salaries and will not be automated in the near future. I also think you're placing too much emphasis on math proficiency in terms of general CS success. Obviously some CS subfields are math heavy, but many are not.

"Is better to give than to get".

Aside your job, consider an activity that requiere help others. Most people like when you help them, even in small ways.

Also, other activities that help to be "solo", but in the good way. Like walking in a forest. Play music or paint. Exercise. Anything that allow to be in your own thinking, but in the path to a positive objetive and not remembering how much you sucks. (also, this can become groupal easily, and still let you to stay alone sometimes!)

You absolutely not need to be good at any of that. People sign in the shower, and suck at it!

So learn and do anything that you enjoy. Not work after a while? At 19 you still have the luxury to change tracks fast.

However, also PAY attention to why, how you do things, what work or not, and what effects and possible source of that are.

---

In relation to programming, in the case your wanna continue:

You hit a problem, google it, fix the problem?

Congratulations, you are above average!

"It seems like all careers other than CS suck salary wise and will be automated in some way or another, and I can't stop thinking about this and sleep."

that's bullcrap dude. Nurse, firefighter, cop, trades, yes even accountants... by the time any of those are automated a lot of programming jobs will be too.

If I had it to do over I go into a trade. Get skilled(while everyone else if in college). then after a couple years work for myself. And yes even in today's automated environment.

First, you CAN do a lot of things and you ARE intelligent. You're also brave for asking here and I hope you're getting some helpful answers!

I think one thing you'll have to come to terms with is your lies about the past. It may be the kind of thing you don't mention again and just move on from, or if it comes up in the future it might benefit from you being a little more honest with people. Impostor Syndrome is a very real thing for people in our industry just because the world is changing so fast, so you'll likely deal with Impostor Syndrome yourself at a number of times in your life/career. This post might be an example of that kind of thing - you feel like a fake when you think other people know what they're doing, and you're an imposter, and if people find out, you'll be out of there. That's not true, and a lot of people struggle with these feelings over many years. The good news is that the solution to impostor syndrome is being honest with people. Don't be afraid to reveal what you _dont_ know or _cant_ do to people. That will help.

Now for the question of "are you smart enough to CS or STEM work" I'm going to say: YES. The fact that you're here, asking in what might be a second language to you, and the intellect you're showing just in what you said all show me that you have a good brain. The field of CS, and STEM is very vast, there are TONS of options, and tons of roles.

You mentioned you ran up against a wall with C++. Me too right when I started, you got farther than me :D You should try something a little more forgiving like JavaScript. It's got tons of practical applications, you could build websites, apps for your phones, desktop apps, server-side apps. I'd suggest taking a more casual approach to programming and try to play with it, and be creative with it, rather than just studying it seriously.

And in the meantime while you're 'struggling', thank your parents for sheltering you and having patience, and trusting you. They've been invested in you for two decades already, and I'm sure they want to see you spread your wings and soar as an adult. You'll get there! They can help :D

At 19, you have no way of knowing whether you're too dumb for anything. All people are dumb at something, vast majority of 19 year olds are dumb at all things. It's possible to have aptitude for something you haven't tried yet, it's possible that getting good takes just a lot more time and effort than you put in so far.

The only way to find out how good you can get is to try a lot of stuff for a few years, and spend 10-20 more years doing the thing you like the most(or have the most aptitude at). Maybe you'll push through and find a way to get success with CS, maybe you'll find out you're good at writing or art or public speaking or something else.

One of my favorite quotes (from Atomic Habits):

> Focus on fulfilling your own potential not comparing yourself to someone else. People get so caught up in fact that they have limits that they rarely exert the effort required to get close to them.

Keep trying and learning and reading, this definitely beats killing yourself.

Also, as other people have said, your post reads like you're depressed. If you have suicidal thoughts - share them with your friends, parents, a doctor, or someone else you trust. The odds are it's just your brain chemistry making you feel these things, which is fixable for many people with lifestyle changes and medication.

Speaking of which, make sure to eat healthy, have enough high quality sleep, and regular exercise. You'll be really surprised how much difference this stuff makes, especially over time, both in intelligence and mood.

I felt suicidal when I was 19, and I'm VERY happy I didn't do this, I ended up discovering things I love doing and feel very passionate about, and I want to live SO MUCH, more and more every year. If you don't feel like living for your career, live to watch the next season of Rick and Morty, to see Elon Musk land a spaceship on Mars, to have your intelligence improved with whatever crazy tech we'll have in 20 years, to avoid upsetting your parents - find any excuse to keep going, it doesn't matter, what matters is that it's VERY likely that a few years from now your life will change in all sorts of surprising unexpected ways and you'll feel about this stuff very differently.

Don't kill yourself, life has too much fun even for you.

You're probably not that smart, but not dumb either. For smart people math usually comes easy, as it doesn't require much memorisation.

Dumb people are not able to do deep self reflection.

C++ is probably not your language, so if you want to stay with computers, I suggest you take a look at web programming, as it has the least math. You can always switch inside programming if you change your mind.

Go for HTML, JavaScript, Vue as a start for example. Try to have fun with it. Build things. Then come back and ask more questions.

If you interested in moving forward with programming:

You might try making a game for fun. To give yourself a goal that's more intrinsic. with less stress.

Also, stay away from c++ until your a lot more comfortable with programming. or ever.

You might check out python or vb.net to learn with. little bit easier to follow what's going on.

I would look for tutorials with a cool library or api like an opencv + language tutorial.

The best part of programming is when you can use some else's hard work to slap together something cool.

Oh... I was thinking about trying out some web development stuff, but because of other issue I haven't tried doing so yet.

Also, gotta investigate what vb.net is. Never heard of it before!

Thanks for your response ;)

there are a lot of libraries out there that help you make cool things with a little programming. But, in the beginning that's how you get into programming and get passed the procrastination hump. VB.net is part of visual studio. it's the .net version of basic. which to me is much easier to read and program. Also, if your just learning to code windows forms is a good place to start because you can drag and drop widgets on a screen and build pretty good local programs.

or if your not interested in programming. There will be plenty of good jobs outside programming for a longtime. Some others below suggested some good ones to look at.

Don’t kill yourself! You’re 19 things will be fine! Check out Lambda School (https://lambdaschool.com). It’s an immersive all remote coding school that won’t let you fall behind. They will support you the whole way and you only pay them back if you get a job that pays 50k or more a year. They’re opening in Europe too!

Oh you are still 19, you have a long way to go. Take it slow. Try new things and find what you like to do.

I’m going to invoke Betteridge here and say no :)

You can do anything you want. There will be struggle (such as what you experienced with the segfault) but that’s the stuff that keeps other people out, it doesn’t have to keep you out.

Good luck!

Thank you :)