I think generally, evidence points to the contrary. It's amazing how quickly specific martial arts lose their fighting ability when realistic sparring/fighting is replaced with forms, meditation, light/no contact, etc.
See: 1993-1995 UFC competitions where traditional schools were destroyed by wrestlers, judoka, and BJJ.
I really don't think hardly anybody in the developed world is ever going to face a true combat situation where they can actually use their empty-hand skills. It means they couldn't run away, lost their gun, and couldn't find a improvised weapon. The actual military doesn't train it any more other than for confidence. When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there.
We did do bare-knuckle, few-rules sparring in Merpati Putih and it was legit my favorite thing to do. We hit and got hit hard, but I didn't get near the amount of sparring time I wanted. Even so, I'd have put my MP skills against anybody else's in a typical bar fight. Not now of course, those days are long long gone. My survival strategy these days is to de-escalate, and if that doesn't work, submit, and if that doesn't work, go momma bear and hope I survive.
I disagree with this. It can certainly be true if you are in a situation where guns are common (eg. Texas). But the majority of people are in a situation where guns are not available. You should train with what you have available, and for self defense, with what you are likely to have in a normal day. Luckily for us where guns are not available, running away is the best option!
"When you train MMA, you're really training for MMA competitions, not for any kind of real-life combat situation, cuz MMA won't help you there."
Whilst I don't 100% agree (I think training mma will help a bit), you bring up a really good point. That there is a huge difference to learning to fight for a competition, and learning to fight for self defense. And like you said, de-escalation, and situational awareness, are the best course of action.
Its usually the best option even where guns _are_ available (even in Texas). Unless a shooter is an outstanding shot or very close, its hard to shoot a running person.
A good rule for some is, if the distance from an active shooter is less than 20 feet and there is nothing between then attack, otherwise run away. FWIW I always carry a knife.
See Tueller Drill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
Spending 10000 hours palm fisiting a piece of steal in a quiet room after working on your breathing for 30 seconds has no practical application in these situations.
Spending 10000 hours properly escaping someone fully committed to strangling you while they have you mounted, or better yet preventing that situation from occurring with takedown defense / offense and effective clinching has a variety of practical applications in these situations.
(Biased BJJ practitioner)
The reason you've never been in a street fight is because you don't seek them out and know how to avoid them. This is not a skill any martial art will teach you and if that's what they are teaching you, you're getting ripped off.
I'll never forget the advice that a Russian ex-military martial arts instructor gave our group of Systema trainees in the late 90s, after a hard day of punching, kicking, bayonet-fighting, etc. Context: someone had asked him a cringey, noob question like, "What's the ultimate, most dangerous technique?"
He thought a minute and said, “To train hard makes one safer in all situations. But no technique is perfect, and of course a gun can kill anyone with just this [gestures with a bayonet]. So the best rule to stay safe is this: Don’t go to bad places with bad people.”
Dude had a big-ass knife scar on his forearm from Chechnya. He knew about bad people and places.
All this talk about staying safe is just missing the point entirely. You'll probably never face a violent situation that would require you to even run away from it. The cool factor is really all that's left. And the discipline and health and meditation. And these things are really awesome in and of themselves. They'll help you in your life way more than whatever minuscule safety tips you pick up along the way.
The only thing you ever really fight is yourself.
> You'll probably never face a violent situation that would require you to even run away from it.
. . .this simply hasn't been my experience in life. Granted, I chose to work as a bouncer for a while, but I come from a backwoods area of the Southern US with no shortage of alcohol- & poverty-fueled violence.
I'm happy that you've lived in safer places, but realize that your experience isn't universal.
And you're just making my point for me, that martial arts training increased your confidence, and that made you not a target and gave you an appreciation for how horrible real violence is. The actual contents of the training don't really matter as much as these other things.
When I'm walking in a dangerous area, or even a safe area, I always look directly at all who approach in the other direction, from afar. I intentionally look friendly, but ready for a confrontation. Anybody who looks even slightly troublesome gets a head to toe scan, not because I intend to do anything with the information but rather to signal that I'm not going to be an easy victim.
Troublemakers, muggers, beggars, prostitutes, pushers are just like you and me: they are looking for an easy job. If you act - not look but act - like you would be difficult to handle then they will look for another victim.
Oh, and I should mention that vigilant situational awareness had saved me from many more speeding electric bikes than terrorists. Nice side benefit.
I went to a very strenuous and traditional Tae Kwon Do school as a kid in a diverse semi low-income neighborhood. I had no delusions that it was teaching me how to fight well in MMA or a street fight. Situational awareness, lack of ego, and running are more important for self-defense anyway.
I got into great shape, became flexible, learned body awareness (forms are good at this), breathing, and it really helped me develop a lot as a person and forever recognize the importance of physical health and humbleness. It was a very welcoming family environment with people from all ages and ethnicity and everyone had so much respect for each other. I still visit my master when I see my parents and its such a blessing. I come back nearly 15 years later and it feels frozen in time in the best way. I'm a little sad to see MMA gyms take over, but I think this school was a rarity even when I grew up. My master spent his entire life doing Judo and TKD and had 30+ years of experience in each.
We sometimes practiced Tae Kwon Do the Sport. Its what you see in the Olympics. Its not about real fighting, its just a sport and a very small aspect of the rest of the training. The other bonus is you don't get CTE from practicing unlike MMA. (at more competitive levels knockouts do happen, but there is headgear and no head punching)
Nothing has made me sadder moving to the software industry then how I let it sever my connection to physical arts. I'm not blaming the industry, it was my own time management and habits. Now, I saved enough to take a year off doing cheap travel in the US and I plan to spend a few months going back to my home gym. I feel so grateful.
I just found having a full time job made it hard to get in consistent workouts that weren't just showing up to a gym. I had a work schedule that was shifted late for commute reasons so I found it hard to hit class times consistently. If I didn't eat enough that day I could still go to a gym and do a light workout. If I messed up my eating schedule and had to go to a intense class, that just wouldn't work out since I couldn't eat too soon before class or go when I hadn't eaten enough.
I looked at jiu jitsu gyms since that's a consistent experience I enjoy and there are lots of gyms. Its pricing is kinda steep if your not committed to going a lot. I find that more traditional martial arts gyms really vary for me depending on the culture and instructor and haven't tried to shop around for those as much.
In a surprising turn of events, a tournament organized in large part as self-promotion by Gracie family "proven" the effectiveness of their martial art.
If you don't have good evidence to support your claims, the onus is on you to find better evidence, not on everyone else to provide evidence to the contrary.
He literally gave reasonable evidence to support his claim. The reply made a conflicting claim with no evidence, OP simply, respectfully, asked for evidence.
Yeah, the early UFCs were a commercial for the Gracie's BJJ, but there is no sign or credible claim that it was rigged. Royce Gracie won UFC 1, 2, and 4 over the course of 13 months. After that it was mainly wrestlers.
This isn't antagonistic, I would also like to see if there was a similar competition where 'traditional' martial arts fared better.
But after getting my clock cleaned in a few friendly-ish matches with local boxers and judoka - and after seeing the same results with the far-superior practitioners in the early UFC - I was forced to admit that I had been absolutely wrong about the practicality of my art. My fellow kung fu practitioner (who participated in some of these matches) sparred a boxer, got destroyed, and said something along the lines of, "Yeah, I could totally pulled off some really sweet palm strikes if he hadn't kept punching me in the face for, like, the entire match."
An art practiced in a live manner with a resisting opponent seems to _always_ be more effective in real life, even if it's somewhat handicapped by rules of sport.
Specifically, about six months into studying judo (after switching from kung fu), I got into an altercation outside of a bar. A larger man threw a punch at me, and I instinctively clinched. I was scared shitless and exactly zero of the fancy kung fu techniques of the previous three years came to mind. Instead, the judo techniques I'd trained for much less time - but under conditions of resistance and fatigue - basically activated themselves and my panicked mind just observed as my body dropped the guy onto pavement with a simple drop-knee shoulder throw. Fight over.
It remains one of the most important lessons I've learned about martial arts and the human mind in general: the unconscious mind is in control. And it's less flexible than the thinking mind, but when it's trained appropriately for the situation at hand, it will respond with a speed and certainty (especially when fueled with adrenaline) that feels preternatural.
If the ridiculously small sample size, questionable sampling technique and the fact that one of the participants was part of the school/family that organized the whole event doesn't disqualify early UFCs as "evidence" in your eyes, then it's pretty clear you are simply want to confirm your biases.
>This isn't antagonistic, I would also like to see if there was a similar competition where 'traditional' martial arts fared better.
What's stopping you? Search for "open martial arts tournament". Good luck verifying whether participants are actually proficient in the art they claim to represent, though.
Also, not "no holds barred," whatever that means, but you can call boxing a traditional martial art if not an Eastern one, and Floyd Mayweather absolutely dominated Conor McGregor in their one matchup. Naturally, Floyd would have gotten killed in an MMA match with McGregor, but that's another answer.
Every single UFC tournament has been won by wrestlers, sambo fighters, and bjj fighters, with the exception for UFC 3 where Steve Jennum (Ninjitsu) was an alternate and fought in the finals, where he won by a sloppy armbar.
The upperweights are similar. Historically dominated by wrestlers and grapplers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFC_champions#Lightwei...
Ever heard of confirmation bias? Well, you're engaging in it right now. If winning an early UFC is "evidence" of MA effectiveness (which I don't think it is) then Steve Jennum's victory should be accepted as "evidence" that Ninjitsu is effective. But you've just offhandedly dismissed it.
This a common pattern. Often, when a practitioner of traditional martial arts wins an MMA fight of any sort, MMA fans proclaim it "doesn't count" because of one of the following:
- It supposedly didn't look like their style of fighting.
- They cross-trained in other martial arts.
- The opponent wasn't "good enough" or the match wasn't high-level enough.
On the flip side, the same fans don't seem to care at all whether BJJ people or wrestlers cross-train, whether their actual performance "looks" like their style, or which techniques they used to win. Again, confirmation bias all around.
If eye-gouging, ear-biting, headbutts, groin-tearing, etc. were allowed, most of BJJ's techniques would be rendered moot, just like allowing grappling obsoletes most of boxing's techniques.
Completely not true. In the UFC if a person sits guard the standing practitioner can force the ref to stand the guard player up. (Heavily favors a striking based martial art). If there is a temporary lull in action on the ground the ref has the discretion to stand the fighters back up (also favors strikers)
In the early days of the UFC headbutts were allowed so those didn’t really seem to get in the way (they are allowed and practiced in Sambo as well) and finally try to the gouge the eyes of a BJJ black belt (or blue belt for that matter). Bas Ruten actually answers this rebuttal hilariously in an interview I watched years ago.
I’m confident krav-maga gurus would still get mollywhopped if the UFC completely threw out their rule book.
These are the only rational reasons. You'll maybe be in one or two violent situations in your whole life (maybe a few more if you don't know how to, ya know, run away from them) and it's a hundred to one that those situations will call for empty-handed fighting.
Spending multiple hours a week training for something you have maybe one in a thousand chance of actually using productively isn't the smartest thing to do with your time. If you think you're doing anything more than staying in shape and building discipline, you're fooling yourself.
This wasn't intended to be an argument, btw. Just hammering the point home for anyone else thinking empty-handed martial arts is a viable self-defense strategy.