Comment by elihu | Hacker News Reader

Comment by elihu | Hacker News Reader

In the realm of Christian theology (and perhaps other areas too), I think there's a related pitfall which is to assume that by reading the Bible exclusively, you can understand what the writers meant when they wrote it without confusing the issues with all the various modern debates about interpretation.

The problem with that is that many passages could have several interpretations, and by default the average Bible reader will tend interpret things the same way his/her parents or pastors or friend or favorite musician or the writers of The Simpsons interpreted them.

By trying to avoid modern bias, one ends up with whatever assumptions are so ingrained in popular culture that one wouldn't even think to question them.

One use of reading modern books (and not-so-modern books) about the Bible is that it's a way of being exposed to those other alternatives, so a Bible reader can make a conscious decision about what they think some passage means, rather than reading something between the lines that might or might not be there and not being aware that they're doing it.

I think CS Lewis's recommendation to alternate between new and old books is a good one.

My favorite Bible interpreters are all 19th century English, Scottish, and Irish writers. They all knew Greek and Hebrew, and some of them studied the ancient manuscripts themselves. Their writing is clear and cogent and their interpretations are still very much relevant. Sadly, I've little use for most contemporary writers on the same subjects. They just aren't up to the same standard.

If God wants to communicate with humanity through the Bible, why make it so difficult to understand the real message?

Instead of requiring years of study of ancient manuscripts in Hebrew and Greek, why not just deliver the message in clear, modern, unambiguous language that the reader understands?

Maybe the context is a bit different (that's always the way with the Bible, I guess, which is why getting a "clear message" is always hard) ... but Matthew 13:12-13 ...

>> (Jesus' words -->) (12) Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. (13) This is why I speak to them in parables: (Jesus quoting older scripture -->) “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

Many evangelicals would say the passage might represent the complexity of interpreting scripture in general, and the the divine purposeful obfuscation of truth. And here's a slew of commentaries about these two verses, giving various scholars' / theologians' perspectives on these two verses:

For commentaries on verse (12): https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/13-12.htm

For commentaries on verse (13): https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/13-13.htm

I haven't yet fully read the commentaries referenced above, but I think the verses and the commentaries will give much Christian perspective on why "the truth" is so obfuscated and hard to find.

That’s the point actually of what Lewis is talking about - and it is a miracle that we have the translations that we do. It’s really not so difficult to understand the Bible — especially with modern translations like ESV, it’s today even easier to understand the ideas of the “common man’s Greek” and Hebrew/Arimaic that the Bible was written in. There is always room however for a scholar of ancient language to help others to understand nuance, figure of speech, or subtle cultural reference that may be difficult to translate directly... but the plain truth is that 99.9% of what you want to know is accessible today by the common reader. There is no excuse for not understanding the Bible - far from it... there is only the excuse that someone wants to ignore it.

The "real message" of the Bible is clear and plain to anyone who reads it (no matter the language). The biggest arguments in Christianity are often on issues that the biblical writers considered side topics, and thus only touched briefly - such as the form of worship services.

Agreed... Man's sinful nature, wages of sin is death, deity of Christ and sacrificial atonement with man's sinful nature as root. It's the root premise which I find to be the biggest stumbling block for most.

If I were a supreme being trying to communicate with humanity, I would definitely and purposefully try to force them to engage their brains to understand what I was trying to say.

Most of the worst aspects of religion come when people don't think at all about nuance or that there might be a variety of reasonable views about how to understand a sacred text, or the need to apply it thoughtfully to their own situation. I'd want to make any sacred text I was inspiring as far from clear, modern and unambiguous as possible.

Not to mention, if your aim is to inspire a work that can be usefully read in nomadic farming communities thousands of years ago and also in the AI, VR infused future, you're going to need a certain amount of ambiguity.

Yep. I wrote in a comment above that the bible evolves over time, depending on interpretation and context. That would seem necessary to me for teachings that are intended to survive into humanity's future.

When you take a new job and there is a large, existing code base - you will not understand the whole of it immediately - even if you are already an expert in the technology/language. Some parts of it you will not understand until you cover the breadth of it, or understand more about the problem domain.

The Bible is the same way.

The Bible is a collection of many books written over a long period of time on many subjects: law, poetry, history, prophesy, etc. It was originally written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and has flavorings from many cultures.

It can take a while to cover the breadth of it, but is not actually difficult to understand. However, you may have to go over the breadth of it a few times to understand some of the nuances.

If you're interested in studying it, there are many "read the Bible" plans out there. Pick one and give it a go. There are also many Bible study groups out there such as Bible Study Fellowship that are dedicated to helping people in this task.

Symbols reveal what is hidden to those in the know.

The bible is full of symbolism, real events in context, doctrine, wisdom, etc. It's not a matter of one language vs another, it's a matter of universal symbolism that can be applied to any age. The monkey as trickster, the poison as subversion. It is incredibly difficult to communicate complex thoughts in plain language, and even then it is liable to a misunderstanding. The bible is not without its misunderstandings, but the point of it is that it's made to be universal in a way that complex meaning is communicated to every age. Every age has its interpretation, and every age is structured by how it puts that interpretation into action.

It evolves with time.

One of my favourite professors was a Jesuit priest. During a class on Christianity, he was asked roughly the same question. His reply was so good that it is still stuck with me, over twenty years later.

Paul said, "Well yeah, that might make sense. But, what if the real purpose of scripture is so that god can teach us to get along with people whose scriptures appear to say something different?"

In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

https://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/1-8.htm

Scripture like this probably don't help teach people of different faiths to get along.

Good point.

I don't practice Catholicism anymore and must confess that I've reached the limits of my Catholic school education, so I'm not even remotely qualified to speak to that. I know that Thessalonians would be one of Paul's (the apostle, not that Paul from my first reply) letters and Paul has always struck me as the world's first growth hacker, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to do more than express a simple opinion.

I'd give anything to have access to some reasonable Catholics who I could ask questions like this. Alas...

I don't know a lot of authors of that era, but I am a fan of George MacDonald (as was C.S. Lewis). He wrote a collection of essays called "Unspoken Sermons" that is quite good, but mostly he communicated his theology through writing novels. A lot of the things he had to say about nineteenth century Scotland apply just as well to a twenty-first century American audience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennox continues the tradition in the 21st century.

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