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> Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks

I don't think you understand how either type of games work. You really believe "dopamine kicks" play a bigger role in casual games than in hardcore ones?

More casual games lean on the fact that there are more aspects to derive fun and value from than just being "better" (being "good" is relative) or just overcoming challenge. Skill, practice and challenge all play a part even in casual games, they simply are not such overpowering factors compared to hardcore experiences.

Karaoke is more popular than playing in a symphony orchestra. Having a higher skill check / barrier of entry doesn't make the hobby any more entertaining.

> Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the later doesn't even require hard work to get there.

That's how many people feel about the abilities in QC, yet you linked a QC style mod. Are the abilities toned down in the mod compared to how they are in QC?

> chess isn't as popular as online poker.

Why do you think this?

Anyone with any sense of these games work would see that modern games like Fortnite or Overwatch take more skill than typical arena shooters. You still need to have the raw mechanical aim skill, but now there are a host of other mechanical, tactical and cooperative skills to master on top of that.

>You still need to have the raw mechanical aim skill

Not even close to the extent you need to have it for a fast-paced AFPS. Watch some top-level quake gameplay and compare it to top-level Overwatch gameplay, it's night and day. Hell, some OW characters even aim for you or don't need to aim at all to be effective (Winston for example)

>but now there are a host of other mechanical, tactical and cooperative skills to master on top of that

Cooperation sure, OW does put more of an emphasis on teamwork. But as far as mechanical and tactical skill goes I don't see how you can make that argument unless you've never played an AFPS

It also doesn't help that almost all arena shooters support cooperative team deathmatch, capture the flag, etc. The only difference is a lack of role specialization between teammates.

But the scene isn't as big for those as it is for 1v1, because its already overwhelming trying to track two people operating at peak performance, let alone 8 or 12. Its a niche of a niche.

The gameplay of games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Quake 3 Fortress and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory was very satisfying because they felt like arena shooters (due to their use of the Quake 3 engine) but were early examples of games having role specialization.

I can't speak about Fortnite, but movement in Overwatch is in general easier than in arena shooters, no? No bunny-hopping, no explosive jumping, apparently no airstrafing now either ...?

Having played shooters since the arena shooter days... no, I definitely disagree.

I like to compare arena shooters vs. Fortnite/Overwatch as chess vs. Settlers of Catan. Arena shooters were much more "open play" in the sense that there were few enough game mechanics that you could mostly guess your opponents' tactics and it often came down to execution and minute variations in the gameplay.

The newer shooters add many, many game mechanics that complicate and randomize the game. Overwatch's large stable of characters, for example. This creates a problem where part of your skill is reading matchups from an intractably large number of factors, then executing on it.

I don't consider either to be superior, but the games put emphasis on and reward different skills.

There was a lot of meta-game you could not grasp as a newb in arena-shooters. You heard the opponent grab the shotgun shells, you knew he could either reach door a or door b in 5 seconds. So you grenade launched into Door A and flung yourself at Door B.

For newcomers this resulted in dying horrible most of the time, all the time.