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Comment by seibelj | Hacker News Reader

I would argue that occupational licensing is extremely overdone, even in the riskier professions like medicine and dentistry. Here is a recent article from the NYT about the horrible situation of cosmetology licensing: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-scho...

I'm not saying we don't need occupational licensing whatsoever. But there is no reason someone can't learn to drill a cavity in 6 months of training. $400k of dental school debt is not required.

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I don't think it's fair to lump dentistry in with cosmetology. Performing surgery on someone's teeth and jaw can have lifelong implications if done incorrectly, and it's thus worth having real training and licensing. Even something as seemingly simple as drilling and filling cavities has all sorts of risks. We already have a much lower level of licensing than DDS for common procedures that can be done safely, i.e. dental hygienists. Actually drilling into the tooth is not one of those procedures.

Cosmetology, by contrast, is mostly aesthetic, and the risks that need managed are relatively simple ones, e.g. learning how not to cut or stab someone with scissors or razors, proper use of dying agents to avoid chemical burns, hygienic practices to prevent spread of lice and fungus, and other stuff like that. So long as you don't make those kinds of errors the worst you can do is leave someone looking not great.

As I responded to another commenter, this has been accomplished successfully in Maine:

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hy...

Looks like new certifications have been developed that slot in between dental hygienist and dentist in terms of required training (independent practice dental hygienists and dental therapists). Neither can diagnose conditions themselves, though the latter can apparently drill and fill simple cavities under the supervision of an actual dentist. This hierarchy fits in pretty well with medicine, where there's nurse assistants, registered nurses, nurse practitioners, physician's assistants, DOs, and MDs.

And of course dentist itself isn't as high as you can get; these are procedures they won't do that you have to be referred to an oral surgeon for.

Anyway, point is, it's not nearly so simple as to just say that occupational licensing is extremely overdone in dentistry.

I think you underestimate the knowledge and training to do dental work safely.

Maine allowed a special license for hygienists to do extra procedures, including cavity drilling (if a real dentist is in the building). It is going fine so far.

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hy...

However, getting the law changed to allow this has been fought tooth-and-nail, so to speak:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-polit...

Like all licensed professionals, dentists are part of a cartel ("guild"). Some guilds are better than others for their members and/or consumers.

I think of those guilds more as the most effective unions in the world. The reason lawyers, doctors, pilots, etc... are paid so well is because they’ve successfully limited entry into their fields. They’ve all got arduous entry requirements, and you can’t operate without the unions blessing. It’s simple supply and demand after that point.

Two of the three fields you mention are not paid especially well on average.

All three have median salaries of 6 figures.

Senior pilots for the major carriers are reasonably well compensated though not usually at levels that the typical FAANG developer would get out of bed for (likely $100-200K). Many regional pilots earn less than $50K and first officers less.

Partners at big city law firms are obviously very well-compensated. But the glut of lawyers has been something of a story in recent years and employment difficulties/low salaries for graduates of second and third tier schools are the norm.

Neither of these professions are examples of highly constrained supply except to the degree that there are only so many ex-military pilots and Ivy League law review grads.

"Pilot" does not have median salary of 6 figures.

"Commercial jet pilot" has median salary of 6 figures. That is not an entry-level pilot position.

Pilots have an extremely high hourly rate if you discount the time autopilot is engaged (and senior pilots make a lot more than junior pilots).

The quality of life hit is huge being away from home, sitting all the time, working nights, solar radiation, and having to work your way up in seniority in an industry that has a lot of ups and down.

Sure — but I think the original argument — that the pilot's union has artificially kept pay relatively high — is valid. Truck drivers have a very similar job but worse compensation (especially comparing senior workers).

With all due respect to the folks who drive 18-wheelers, flying a passenger aircraft and operating a truck require very different levels of training. Relatively small mistakes in operating an aircraft can have very serious consequences for large numbers of passengers.

Example: crew reacted incorrectly to autopilot problems following pitot tube obstruction by ice on AF 447 and stalled the aircraft, leading to death of all on board. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

I don’t think you’ll find a strict correlation between level of training required, and salaries. There’s plenty of highly trained people with low salaries. I’d also be willing to bet that trucking accidents kill more people than airline ones.

Maybe so. But one truck accident kills far fewer people than one airline accident. So each individual pilot has considerably more responsibility than each individual truck driver.

Perhaps, but you could go back and forth on that all day. Look at the list of incidents involving at least 50 deaths on wikipedia[0], comparing aviation and road, there a difference, but it’s not an enormous difference.

My point is that I don’t think there’s a strong correlation between risk to public safety, and remuneration, nor between training and remuneration. There’ll likely be some correlation for both, but you can find huge variations in remuneration across different industries that can’t be explained by those factors.

Training? How long does it take to become a (professional) pilot? I bet it's longer than to get your chauffeur's license... but not so much longer to account for the pay difference.

It occurs to me, though, that vehicle cost might be a factor. How much does a new semi cost? $100,000, maybe? How about a new 737? $80,000,000. Does that influence pay?

It's not just training time. It's also skill and intelligence, which flying requires more of than driving.

Many pilots fly freight — passenger aircraft pilots are a subset of all pilots. And passenger aircraft incidents are exceedingly rare, although I agree individual pilots can have outsized impacts on lives in passenger applications.

It's still possible to subdivide a broad field and allow less-skilled people to do individual parts.

For a cavity, I could see a DDS diagnosing it and also determining that their Certified Carries Tech can handle it on their own. They pass the work off and move to the next patient.

To keep things safe, require a dentist to be available if the need arises.

On the flip side, most people underestimate the knowledge and training required to do any work at all safely. Not 1 in 10 men I've seen climbing a ladder have done so in a safe manner.

If someone has not done a procedure before, I don't trust them regardless of their qualification. If they have done a procedure 100 times, I trust them unless their track record is terrible.

I certainly don't think the government needs to enforce these standards the way they do, occupational licensing is not the answer. Information and voluntary schemes would be a lot cheaper, and probably lead to similar quality.

It’s just job security for the people who have already gone into debt / a way to keep the supply of specialized workers low. For example, the AMA limits the amount of doctors able to graduate from the US so much we are constantly required to allow foreign doctors to immigrate to meet our actual needs

And doctors usually work very long hours too, suggesting there is still a shortage even with the immigration. But, I guess this keeps salaries high

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