Adding a Trackpoint to an Inexpensive Mechanical Keyboard | Hacker News Reader

Adding a Trackpoint to an Inexpensive Mechanical Keyboard

geekhack.org

162 pointsDanBC71 comments

I did a more exotic/weird approach a while back and hid a Trackpoint under a keycap on a mechanical keyboard: https://imgur.com/a/0VHce

Dang this is sneaky and awesome ! Great job. I'll have to remember this

https://www.computerhope.com/jargon/j/jmouse.htm

IIRC that was actually also the concept that Ted Selker started with before settling on the familiar nub design for the pointing stick.

Exactly this has been on my mind for the past year except as a stand-alone key cap that can be placed on any keyboard. If anybody want to makes this a reality I would completely back that Kickstarter.

Power is a major issue for something like that, and you need to find a way to bodge it into the existing key matrix, or have it as it's own HID device (which I believe ruins combos). That and you don't have much space to work with either, especially if you still want to retain the full travel of the switch.

With Gergo [2] I took a different approach, and opted for every key to have pads for connection to the i2c bus, as well as a custom footprint for mounting devices (Needed as I2C is slow and that footprint is connected to a interrupt-able bus). That allows me to create stuff like PCBs cast in resin, vibrating keys and whatnot and whack them around the board, but there is a single slot for anything that needs quick feedback. When a board is 1x1.2cm, you only have so many options, and burying it in resin is valid.

But if you want to have a unified device, you pretty much need a firmware that can handle it. QMK is an amazing project if you've never seen it. It powers Gergo, drives the Trackball and communicates with my boards. And it's open source! Feels weird to be writing and flashing keyboard firmware, but it's crazy useful.

Threw a few more images here if you want to take a look at the module [1]

[1] https://blog.gboards.ca/2018/12/photodump.html

[2] https://www.gboards.ca/

Nice work, that 1u Trackball is awesome. Does it work with any keyboard or does it require your PCB?

It requires a Gergo at the moment. If you know your way around interrupts and QMK you could probably get it into a handwired setup :)

> Power is a major issue for something like that, and you need to find a way to bodge it into the existing key matrix, or have it as it's own HID device (which I believe ruins combos).

Make an own keyboard controller.

It also be very nice if it can actually handle trackpoint as an actual joystick (real trackpoint is a tensometer, not a position sensor.)

I spent 20 years with a Thinkpad as my primary keyboard, and got one of the USB Thinkpad keyboards when I moved to a new job at a desk; turns out if you shock the hell out of one with static a few times a day for several years they stop working...

I was already on a tiling window manager, so I borrowed a friend's Ergodox Ez, did a custom keyboard layout, and augment the keyboard navigation with a regular wireless mouse. I'm pretty happy with that setup. The benefits of the custom keymap outweigh the benefits of a Trackpoint.

I am a long time trackpoint user. I'd been using the Lenovo Bluetooth keyboard for several years but wanted to upgrade to a nice split mechanical. I looked into several models of mechanical keyboards that had trackpoints, but none of them appealed. And looking into the various hacks to add one were a bit beyond what I wanted to try on an expensive new keyboard. I noticed that qmk firmware seemed to have a nice implementation of mouse keys. I figured it would be an ok stopgap until I figured out a better solution. After a few days and several remappings, it's now my preferred solution.

QMK has been the most joyful open source thing I've ever used. Typing on my second split keyboard with weird chording right now. I've seen a spike in rotary encoder support lately (on the Planck and an upcoming new version of Keebio's Iris-the old version of which I'm using now) so keep an eye out for that if you're into fun extra input methods on your keyboard. I'm looking forward to having etch-a-sketch style arrows, personally.

There are a couple of off the shelf mechanicals I've seen over the years that include a trackpoint.

I think these are the two I'm aware of presently:

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det... (built in)

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ (as a module)

I have used neither. But i've considered trying to hack a trackpoint into one of my modded Kinesis Advantages ( I'm thinking at the intersection of RTFG or YUHJ.

I've got a tex yoda 2 which has one. Not available any more, but see https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tex-yoda-ii-mechanical-key...

The first link is to purchase a TEX Yoda II. They're now regularly stocked at mechanicalkeyboards.com, which is awesome.

The idea of a trackpoint on my desktop keyboard is what led me to pull the trigger on one of these: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

As someone who debugs programs often, and renames files with f2, I like f-keys. It looks like a great keyboard, aside from the lack of f-keys.

I don't have a UHK but I have an Ergodox EZ which uses a layer system, similar to the UHK. I have mine setup to where I basically press a Fn key and the number row turns in to F-keys (with a few more to account for F10-F12). It's actually really nice once you get used to it.

I'm on a 56 key split right now but I used to use a 48, which had only F2 (of all the F keys) on any layer because it's used for jumping in Sublime Text or Atom or something. Layers vs dedicated keys becomes a matter of preference over chording vs hand movement; some people prefer one to the other.

I'm pretty excited to get my hands on my Raise [1], although it is taking longer than expected which I guess is par for the course with Kickstarter.

[1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/deilor/dygma-raise-the-...

Nice recommendation. For those who want to see it, watch the video at https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ and at 0:55 you can see the TrackPoint modular add-on.

edit: lol, or just scroll down, it is on the main page.

The ultimate iteration of this will include programmable OLED keys.

Also noteworthy is many UHK components, from the firmware to the electronics, are open-source: https://github.com/UltimateHackingKeyboard

Does anybody know if there's been a keyboard with dual trackpoints, analogous to dual joysticks on game controllers? I'm almost certain this is whats required for precision mousing.

A software controller might look like this: one nub would move a modest sized circle (playing the roll of the hand) quickly around the screen, while the other would make precision movements within that region (playing the roll of fingers), snapping to clickable regions.

I've done this using 2 trackballs, it works really well.

If you run Windows, you might enjoy my JKLmouse utility. I designed it for exactly the purpose you're talking about. You can use the TrackPoint for fast movement and seamlessly follow up with pixel-by-pixel movement using either IJKL (and neighboring keys for diagonals), HJKL, or the cursor keys. Also WASD or ESDF for the left hand.

This is similar to the MouseKeys built into Windows, but it's designed for laptop keyboards and does not require a 10-key pad.

Basically, whenever any mouse button is down, all the keys mentioned above become active as mouse movement keys. So just keep the button down and you can use TrackPoint/touchpad or the keyboard interchangeably.

To move the pointer without any mouse button down, you can hold down the Caps Lock key which also activates keyboard mouse control.

There's an installer, or you may prefer getting JKLmouse.ahk and launching it under AutoHotkey.

https://www.jklmouse.com/

Nice build! Thanks for the xinput trick. I'm actually surprised it went so well.

If you're not a fan of putting this whole thing together yourself these guys in Taiwan make a really nice mechancial keyboard called the Tex Yoda 2. Kinda hard to get though...

Or for half the price, the Unicomp EnduraPro.

http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/FeaturedProducts/UB40PGA

Used to love Umicomps, but bucking springs is actually kinda undesirable to me now. I partly blame open offices but frankly I also have come to prefer different switches from the get go, something requiring less force.

Customer review: I bought one of those a few years ago and found the simili-trackpoint completely unusable. Very very stiff and nowhere near a laptop one, let alone a Thinkpad one. Unicomp are nice Model M substitutes, but don't buy one for the trackpoint, unless you're nostalic also for how trackpoints operated in the 1990s.

The unicomp endurapro Is a waste of money.

The keyboard is meh and the trackpoint is a delusion. For example, the trackpoint on my endurapro moves at different speeds depending on the direction you're moving to. That makes no sense.

A colleague of mine has that and the trackpoint on it is useless. I tried it and it feels super stiff, no acceleration, and the mouse buttons are very hard to press, too. The keyboard is very nice if you like buckling springs. Buy their normal keyboards if those are your thing, but don't buy the EnduraPro. It's nothing like a ThinkPad trackpoint.

Sounds like it uses TrackPoint II, which was an earlier iteration of the TrackPoint as we know it. I have the first laptop I ever used, a Thinkpad 350C and it has this earlier iteration. The feel and caps used were very different.

The current version is the TrackPoint IV.

More on the topic, unfortunately does not include usage in external keyboards: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TrackPoint

IBM made one of their buckling spring keyboards with a trackpoint, the M13

I’d love for someone to build a track pad into the J key, and maybe a high sensitivity trackpad into the K key.

Interesting idea. How would you click?

Remap a button. I have the keys to the right of t,g,b mapped to right, middle, left respectively! Really cozy with a trackball for finicky CAD work

This is not good for me. So... where do one buy a trackpoint? If the folklore is to be believed ibm/lenovo are the only ones worthy.

But ebay only wanted to sell me complete keyboards, which I wouldn't mind but prices were in the ~$100 range and is a bit much for this morning itch.

Perhaps one can buy spares somewhere?

They’re essentially strain gauges, with a nub. But I don’t think you can just convert one.

IBM invented them (I worked a tj Watson research where they had a display case dedicated to its development).

When I was a IBM I had a mouse with a nub, it was much better than the wheel for scrolling, but the concept didn’t take off...

They’re seem to be some on alibaba..!?

"When I was a[t] IBM I had a mouse with a nub.."

I'ver never wanted anything so badly! Link to Alibaba?

The mouse doesn’t exist sadly.

I mentioned alibaba because have trackpoint keyboards though (seemingly in lots of 5). my reply wasn’t clear and lamentably too late to edit.

The mouse does exist, I had one.

Bing IBM SCROLLPOINT 12J3618

Thanks for the model number. I wonder how the driver support is.

I had one at a job too. I remember really liking it. So much better than the wheel. When I said they didn't exist, I meant I couldn't find one on alibaba.. I should reread my posts so they are clearer...

That sounds like the ScrollPoint mouse, which was made by both IBM and Lenovo. If it's not a current product, you might try eBay.

The major patents just ran out so in theory other companies should be able to make decent ones now.

I wish more keyboards had the trackpoint, ideally a brown switch or clear switches.

Trackball under one thumb would be awesome. Then split the keyboard to have two independent parts so you can type with your arms parallel (even better, add a half-keyboard holder at the end of each of your chair armrests).

That's pretty much what I did with Gergo[1], I got tired of the ergonomics of other boards and designed/built my own split board. It's smaller to reduce finger travel/extension, the layout is optimized for programming/vim and even tacked on a trackball. After too many terrible keyboards I made Gergo, and it is extremely comfortable to use for hours at a time!

There's some photos on my blog with the development PCBs (just got the production ready ones in and am shipping them out). Cases are in the works :)

I'm actually planning on adding additional modules (there's I2C contacts on every switch). And the trackpoint is next on my list.

[1] https://www.gboards.ca/

[2] https://pasteboard.co/HUI3Zqy.jpg

[3] https://blog.gboards.ca/2018/12/photodump.html

Sounds like you want this: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

(I want it, too, but it's kinda pricey)

And the TrackPoint and Trackball modules are still "Under Development"

I know they claim that orders are shipping immediately, but a co-worker waited over a year for his.

We have never stated this. Please stop spreading misinformation about us. We've made it crystal clear in our most recent blog post that "we expect to deliver every non-module UHK webshop pre-order in January to February". See https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2018/12/13/shipping... . Afterwards, we'll transition to on-demand manufacturing.

I miss when laptops had trackballs. It was the only time in history when I preferred the pointing device on laptops to a standard mouse! (back in the 90s I used to use trackballs on my desktops)

I have not used this thing, and it's ugly as sin but this might do you: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ it has trackpoint and trackball modules.

In a similar vein, I'm on the lookout for a tiny bluetooth pointing device that I can use with my Android. I've been looking for a trackpoint or one of those small optical trackpads. I've had no luck.

I'm currently typing this from a Tex Yoda II, and I can say that at least for me, the trackpoint keyboard on my work desktop is very nice. The biggest problem I have is that I more or less sit in exactly the same position for hours on end without moving any joints beyond my hands. Also, whenever someone needs to take over for me on my machine, they are always taken aback by the lack of mouse.

OH MY GOODNESS, I WANT THIS!

I have toyed with ditching my MS Natural 4000 for a real ThinkPad Keyboard because I want the TrackPoint!

This should allow me to keep the MS Natural 4000 and mod it with the TrackPoint!

LOVE THIS!

Actually, the "back|forward" buttons on the 4000 could be used as the primary/secondary input devices too. Put the TrackPoint just below the "Zoom" switch.

That annoying ugly "button" in the middle of the keyboard is the main thing that makes me rule out lenovo laptops in general before I even look at them.

I find it very hard to understand why anyone would want to add one!

Instead of dismissing the trackpoint because of how it looks, try using it exclusively for a week to understand why people really like them.

Not OP, but I did give it a chance (couple of weeks) and I just can't seem to get used to it. I have no issue with alternative input types (I frequently switch between anything in mouse keys, trackpad, regular mouse and both finger and thumb operated trackballs), but I was just super inaccurate with the Trackpoint, the pointer kept flying off all over the screen it for some reason. Tweaking sensitivity/acceleration helped a bit, but not by much.

I can definitely understand the appeal - having a mouse on the home row is pretty damn cool - but damn didn't I have a good experience. Using it for a couple days doesn't mean you'll like it.

On the flip side if you use a Mac track pad for a week you’ll never need a track point.

I disagree. I have both a MBP and ThinkPad. I'm probably in the minority, but I prefer the trackpoint.

I also have both, and I love both. I'm about as fast with both, although gaming with a trackpoint is a positively joyful experience.

I found the Mac trackpad worse than those on other laptops actually - seems to somehow get in my way more and it's push down thing seemed far more annoying than the tap gestures common on other devices. Fortunately that switch is possible on them I believe, just seems like you're giving up a "feature" to change it...

Both work simultaneously with default settings, at least on the latest OS.

I doubt that.

Even though a Mac track pad might be the best trackpad out there, a trackpad has always been less than optimal substitute for a separate mouse, but being build in the device and always available made up for that gap in convenience.

For laptops, if the principle agrees with you, a trackpoint is a far superior device to even a separate mouse for almost all uses.

Yes, and it saves my joints to not have to stretch and move a mouse.

I find it interesting that your criteria for selecting a laptop seem to be primarily aesthetic.

I would guess that you are in a small minority here on HN, with most people selecting based on price, feature-set, and possibly brand loyalty/aversion (i.e. "Never buying an Acer again!"). Even if they don't use the nib personally, it's quick to disable and then it's just a visual feature on the keyboard.

To be fair, the main brand that uses them these days is Lenovo and they generally ship absolute trash now.

I had one and broke the hinges just past my warranty period...

I'm also confused as to why anyone would find it functionally better than a trackpad.

One reason: once you are used to it, it is wonderful not having to leave the home row to use the mouse.

In a world where track points were widely accepted, you could go without the big track pad, and put the keyboard to the edge of the laptop, and not have to reach over a big wrist rest. Alternatively, you could make some much smaller laptops, with regularly sized keyboards (and probably overly wide monitors)

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