Life Hack - The 30/30 Minute Work Cycle Feels Like Magic | Hacker News Reader

Life Hack - The 30/30 Minute Work Cycle Feels Like Magic

chetansurpur.com

380 pointschetan51134 comments

I did 50-10s for many years -- and was productive as hell doing it.

I think the numbers vary depending on the person and the project, but absolutely, having the discipline to push away from the desk and change context puts your productivity in warp gear. It works by allowing you mind to work on the problem while you play.

By the way, to let another secret out of the bag, this process of engineered distraction also works very well with teams.

Many times we confuse stubbornness with determination. Sitting there staring at the screen does not a work product make.

But I'll add one caveat -- the reason I got away from this (and am now only getting back to it) is because the internet itself has become the "getting away" activity. This leaves you at your desk checking emails, updating twitter, etc. In such a case, you're not allowing your subconscious to work on your problem at all. Instead, you're throwing a bunch more stuff at it. So in retrospect I think its critical to physically detach yourself from your technology. A stand-alone game would be fine. Sitting at the terminal listening to your email and IM chimes while you play a flash game would not.

EDIT: It's also interesting to note how hard it is to pull away from your work -- both when you're loving it and when you're hating it. I don't think it's ever easy, but after a while you get into a "rhythm" and it all just kind of flows.

I've found 50-10 works well for me for housework. In that case, 10 minutes on the internet is fine, because the other 50 are spent offline.

I think my high school classes were on a 50/10 schedule.

Mine are on 51/5.

Where do the 4 missing minutes go?

Why do you think it needs to add to 60? Those "4 missing minutes" are probably the first four minutes of the next period.

Many US high schools don't rely on hourly scheduling, so classes may end at arbitrary times: I finished at 2:11pm daily.

I thought it was just our school district. We got out at 14:32. Why not 14:30??

Classes are scheduled by hours / semester, not hours / day.

Adjust for how many days you can fit in around the major holidays, remodeling, and so on, then divide the number of days by the number of minutes and you have the required course time. (Of course you tweak it a bit if the course session lengths are odd.)

This sounds great for productivity, but I'm wondering about the 'settling' in time after your break ends.

When it's time to start working again, do you start work immediately or does it take some time to get back to where you stopped?

Or do you have to design your work to be in chunks of 50 mins for this to be effective?

I used the Pomodoro technique (25/5) when writing my Master's thesis. I had no problem settling in after my breaks. When the 25-minute work period ended, I would literally stop mid sentence, leave my text editor open, and walk outside. It was easy to get started again after my break, because I was in the middle of a sentence that needed finishing. That was usually enough to get me back up to speed, because after a 5-minute break, my mind hadn't wandered too far.

The concept is excellent, but the ratio doesn't work for me.

I prefer 42/18.

42 because it is the Ultimate Answer of Life, the Universe, and Everything:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrases_from_The_Hitchhiker%27s...

and 18, because it is the Gematria for the word "life":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chai_%28symbol%29

If I'm going to adopt a system, my inner nerd insists upon increasing efficiency by using components with multiple purposes.

I also do the 42 minute thing. A good amount of time to concentrate, but not so long that you are "out of touch" with people that you are communicating with.

The Pomodoro Technique(TM) is essentially the same, but waltzing in 25/5 time. A longer interval makes more sense to me too, though. Maybe 45/15 or 50/10; either way, it helps block out distractions - "No, self, I committed to working on this for another fourteen minutes."

I wrote an Emacs work / rest timer (http://github.com/silentbicycle/zwiebel) for that sort of thing, if anybody's interested. (I hooked it up to an XOSD (http://ignavus.net/software.html)-based alert.)

I wrote a PyQt timer for doing the same thing. http://code.google.com/p/ptimer/

There is Chromodoro plugin for Chrome (not very useful unless doing web work)

Pomodoro Timer applet for Gnome (http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Utilities/Pomodoro-Timer-5582...)

RsiBreak for KDE (http://www.rsibreak.org/)

Pomodoro Tasks for Android (currently using)

I know somebody else mentioned it below somewhere, but since this is the top-most entry regarding software, there is another very good multi-platform program called workrave. I used it while at work with the previously mentioned 48/12 division, but 30/30 sounds great, too. I am going to give it a try right now...

I just found this one for windows, http://sourceforge.net/projects/pomodorotimer/. The most useful feature is that you can set the work and break times - something missing from the few other timers I have tried.

I used to use 45/15 for studying. I could do amazing feats of rapid learning in college that way.

I spent ages looking at various timer software and finally found this one - been using it for years: http://acapsoft.com/det.php?prog=Egg The best thing is how few clicks it takes to start/reset a timer.

No timer for me. I drink plenty of water and hence have to take frequent breaks. Never timed it but it might be around 45 min.

I wonder if it'd be helpful to have a daily mindfulness meditation practice on the same timing schedule used for work.

ie, if you work for 25 minutes ala pomodoro, then in the morning or evening do a 25 minute sitting. If you do 42 minutes of work, do a 42 minute per sitting.

It'd be one more thing every day to help train yourself into focusing during the work periods.

I generally sit when something disturbing happens. Extremely useful practice, from both a spiritual and a productivity perspective.

Same with me. I tend to use sitting as a way to let go of something frustrating/troublesome that came up while working on something.

It's makes getting back to work much easier.

Do you use the free time for HN/mail or you really leave the computer to change your mind to that other working mode you mentioned the other day?

I do 60/20, most of the time.

I've been using the Pomodoro Technique for a while, and it's proven to be a really great tool.

In fact, I liked it so much, I decided to build my next webapp around it. We're still working on it, but a beta should be out in a few weeks. Sign up for it here: http://www.pomodoroplanner.com

I wrote a Pomodoro Webapp not too long ago ..

http://www.tomato-timer.com

if you use chrome, it has desktop notifications .. and I added a start/stop to timer..

If you're flexible about the second 30, I find this works really well with working from home, because the second 30 can be typical personal chores. Wake up, work for a bit, then make coffee. Work some more, then eat breakfast. Work some more, then have a shower. Work some more, go for a walk. Etc, etc. Sometimes 5-10 minute breaks, sometimes an hour or more.

I'd be worried about intermixing work + life like that. I've recently tried to be better about keeping my mornings and nights work-free, and I feel better because of it. Do you find that to be a problem at all, and if so, how do you deal with it?

When your work is fun, that is not a problem at all.

Yeah its an issue. But if there are personal chore-like things you have to anyway, you'd be allocating time out of your non-work hours for them anyway.

Don't mix personal life (people) and work this way, but for random chores it's fine. I try to give the dog three walks a day this way, which really helps both our sanity. Additionally, I try to get some stretching/pushups/situp breaks mixed in this way. I am not strict (meaning, don't at all) about following a particular timing, just when I feel my brain start to wander. I'll be trying to follow something more strict this week to see if there is something to it.

I've been a programmer of one sort or another for close to 30 years. Personal life?

I was thinking of my situation when I mentioned this - working from home and having roommates is rough. It's too easy to have a girlfriend or roommate distract you in your ten minute break. My girlfriend assumes I am fair game if I come out of my office, even after repeated "i am at work" conversations. I think most people just don't understand working from hom and how difficult to stay on track it can be.

The real magic? Learn your body/mind's rhythm. Sometimes you'll do productive work for hours. Sometimes you'll need frequent breaks.

Intrinsic (type of work, work environment, deadline, depth) and extrinsic factors (such as food, relationships, etc) will affect this rhythm and you'll have to be smart enough to realize when to respect your body's wishes and when to ignore them (feeling bored may have to do with not getting enough sleep, or maybe you just feel like procrastinating. Learn to figure out which).

People who know my previous comments might think I sound like a broken record -- but, this is the exact reason why I love having a table tennis table at the office. It's the perfect distraction to coding that focuses on pure reflexes and hand-eye coordination.

After a game of ping pong, my mind is usually cleared and can tackle the next problem. Lots of +1's to the idea of zoning your brain out of the problem area for a while to get your subconscious working.

We have a ping pong table at work, but I can't say it helps me feel refreshed. I often need a breather and to cool off after one of our grueling five game matches. Of course, we might go a little overboard since we have a professional player coach us every Friday and hold our own charity tournaments. haha. work hard, play hard or something like that ;)

A professional ping pong coach? You guys are dedicated.

part of the mastery process, bro

Yes. We are. Sometimes the coach is the only reason we play for a whole week though. Needless to say, our coach does not approve. :)

Wow! That is awesome that you get a coach. I get coaching every once in a while.. but definitely not at work :)

Where do you work? If you're in the bay area, i'd love to drop by sometime for a game.

We're in AZ, but if we have a tournament again, you should come out. It's handicapped, so anyone can win. Actually, maybe we should consider having our next one in SF.

http://www.spyfu.com/docs/SpyFuOpen

Going for a bike ride works well for me. I know the roads around my house & office quite well, so I can be on semi-autopilot, riding with just enough focus on my surroundings that my backbrain can still mull over a problem. Or, I can ride hard and grind out a stressful afternoon. Either way, it's a good time for inspiration to strike. (Weightlifting is great, too.)

My office is big on darts, but that doesn't get the blood flowing in the same way as ping pong or cycling. :)

We also have a ping pong table at work. Aside from the the benefits of weaving some exercise into the routine of staring at screens all day, the best thing we've observed so far is that it's a social activity that requires very little setup (just pick up the paddles and go) and has a very low entry barrier (many of us either never played or did so many years ago).

The end result is that people in the team got to know each other the quickest of any place I've worked at (and new team members integrate in no time), which also resulted in people working really well together.

Funny thing is that we also have a Wii which was bought the same day as the table, but only saw playtime the first week. After that it has been collecting dust.

I don't know, what exactly can you do during 8 * 30 minutes interruptions a day? My leisure time is mostly browsing the internet (which is usually work related) being it HN, Facebook, Reddit, or just Googlish site

Working alone from home I've found myself enjoying playing with the kids toys during a break. Last year I played a lot of swing-ball (or totem-tennis as it's also known), I recently picked up a trampoline which is great fun and incredibly energizing.

For people who do something like this: how do you manage logistically? Do you set an alarm? Do you just know when your 30 minutes (or 42, or 50) are up? Do you always keep an eye on the time? I'm curious because the concept seems like it could work, but I lose track of time easily.

+1 because I think that this is an important question.

It seems that the intent of this method is to increase productivity. In saying this, nothing kills productivity more than deadline tension. Having to constantly look over at the time would no doubt have this effect.

I'm a little baffled by why people feel that finding a device (hardware or software) that will countdown a specified interval of time and announce the conclusion of that interval is so hard.

The venerable egg-timer has been around for a long time, and would work just fine. You can even setup OS X to use text-to-speech to announce the time on the hour and the half-hour (if you are doing the 30/30). Not to mention that 'countdown clock' software is practically a 'hello world'-level programming project (if you throw out all of the bells-and-whistles like sexy notification animations, etc). On Linux, you could setup a script using 'at' and 'zenity' to remind your of time intervals... etc ...

I personally find that having a deadline increases my productivity. If I feel like I have unlimited time to work on something, it rarely gets done until the last minute.

Well, this morning after reading this I threw together a script in 5 secs to do this for me.

I'm using OS X and like everyone this means I have Growl installed for various applications. I figured that it should be easy enough to announce my times using that.

Looked around, found the commandline tool growlnotify and 5 seconds later...

    #!/bin/sh

    while true; do
        sleep $((30*60))
        growlnotify -swn Timer -m Playtime! Timer
        sleep $((30*60))
        growlnotify -swn Timer -m Worktime! Timer
    done

...was born.

And for those of us with Linux (needs notification-daemon and libnotify):

  #!/bin/sh
  
  while true; do
        sleep $((30*60))
        notify-send -i applications-games -t 60000 "Play"  \
            "Hey, it's time to take a break\!"
        sleep $((30*60))
        notify-send -i applications-office -t 60000 "Work" \
           "Now get back to work ..."
  done

Phone Timer apps. TinyAlarm, an egg timer.

I use this OSX Dashboard Widget - http://keisasaki.com/Minutes.zip

The developers blog has changed (and the screenshots are gone) but you can see a screenshot here http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4898/minutes2thumb1mg8.jp...

I find "keeping an eye on the time" very distracting. When I work alone, I usually set up my phone timer to some interval and then toss it away, out of sight. I also restrain myself from estimating the remaining time based on looking at computer clock. I just do my work untill it rings. At work I try to avoid using phone timer, as ringing sound might distract my co-workers.

I personally set my time by album length. Depending on the work I need to do in the next block, I can range anywhere from 30min to 2hr. Typically it's in the range of 45-80min. I have a few key albums that I listen to often and when listening to those can now subconsciously pace my work to a certain extent.

Of course, you need to be the kind of personal that likes to listen to music while working in order for this to work.

You must tell us the album names.

I've been using Rhythmbox to play music, and in it you have a play queue in addition to being able to play directly from the library. It conveniently tells you how long total time in the play queue is. I often toss an album in there, then trim it to the amount of time I have before I want to stand up. There's usually a track or two that could stand to be removed.

I like energetic music for things that are mostly implementation and little thought (e.g. Dragonforce). While I use more relaxed, less vocal music for things that are mostly planning and thinking (e.g. cello concertos or Mogwai)

Somebody make a music app that does this for you!

When I do it, I use the "workrave" program under Linux. You can set your times and it shows you when you need to give a break. It also shows some exercises during breaks.

It's pretty awesome. I have it set up to lock my computer without any way (besides going to the tty screens) to unlock it... Any other way and I end up postponing the breaks and not taking them.

Arg! I have this same problem. I typically end up killing it at one of the ttys at some point during the day.

I lose track of the time pretty often. If I blow through a break, it's no big deal. There's nothing magical about these numbers.

I use http://e.ggtimer.com/30%20minutes

Or http://e.ggtimer.com/pomodoro for a full 25/5 cycle

why is this wonderfully simple timer using flash?

I've bought several timers on Amazon while experimenting with this, and this one was by far the best: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JRAKSG/ref=wms_ohs_prod...

* silent, no distracting ticking

* alarm starts quiet, gets louder

* no need to "turn past" a certain point to get it started

Basically, it doesn't require you to fuss with it... just turn the dial and you're off.

For a long time now, I have wanted to code in a cabin in the country.

Just imagine going outside and chopping wood, hauling it back in, and setting your fire correctly. I can hardly imagine a more ideal alternative activity to coding for that second length of time.

I'm there, solar powered cabin, wood stove. Works great, my concentration is much better here.

I couldn't hold to a strict time-based rule though. I prefer not to interrupt flow when I'm in flow. Anytime I get stuck I go chop wood or haul water, or at night, look at the stars.

Where do you live? If you'd rather chat personally use first.last@gmail.com. Where my name is within my username.

This reminds me the Pomodoro Technique. http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/

I bought a pomodoro iphone app and tried it for about a week or so, alas 25 mins was just too short for me.

I generally find 45/20 to be about right balance for me. I now use Vitamin-R (Mac App) to track time/goals.

I'm currently using Concentrate (http://getconcentrating.com), and I love it. Checking out Vitamin-R tonight! Thanks for the suggestion! :-)

Wow, that looks amazing. Website blocker and everything. Now that I see it, that just seems like such an obvious solution. Why am I not using this already?

Just looked closer at the rocket company and software, and they do awesome work.

Looks great.....but there doesn't seem to be anything similar for windows.

Selective blocking of the web (HN, reddit) would be important.

I generally save the Pomodoro technique for when I've got something I really need to do but really don't want to do. The shortness of the 25 minutes can be quite useful in those situations.

Sometimes I find the shortness of 25 minutes blocks of time works well as a kind of challenge - "holy crap, only 2 minutes to go... got to finish..."

I've been trying this with http://focusboosterapp.com/ . It's pretty solid.

I made a similar timer for Emacs - (http://github.com/silentbicycle/zwiebel). You can set the minute ratio.

According the pomodoro technique pdf "we’ve come to consider the ideal Pomodoro as 20 – 35 minutes long, 40 minutes at the most. Experience shows that the Pomodoro Technique works best with 30-minute time periods" I now have leveled up my pomodoro to the half hour mark, it does wonders.

I use this work pattern when I'm doing particularly distasteful work, and it generally works well.

The only thing I'd advise is that if you're in a state of flow (in which the passage of time just disappears and your focus zeroes in completely), don't worry about maintaining a rigid time schedule.

Every so often, when I'm writing, I forget to check the clock and then it is 3 hours later and I realize that I've missed a meal. I wouldn't trade those times for very many things.

That's a really good point, and I should have mentioned that in the article. Thanks for the comment!

This just reinforces the suspicion I've had for some time now that time working is not tightly related to accomplishment, especially if the work is intellectual.

I did an hour-on/hour-off cycle when I was in school studying for exams each semester, and it was great. Working for an hour meant that I could nail a solid two concepts, and then go do something else for an hour, and then come back and spend an hour on some practice problems that used those concepts. I remember initially trying a shorter 30-30 cycle, but when a problem takes 20 minutes to do (by design) subbing out at 30 didn't really get much done.

I also found it let me work much longer. I'd get to the library at 10am, work one-on/one-off until 11pm or so, go home and watch a bit of TV, and repeat - for three weeks straight, only interrupted by days when I had actual exams, on which I'd do about four hours off after the exam and get back to work.

Definitely, this model did wonders for me in Gradschool, but I am wondering if anyone has tried doing this in a corporate environment? I just started my first gig at a large company. I take "walking breaks" to circle the block several times a day to clear my mind and people seem incredulous that I am not tolling at my desk. Wonder how they would feel if I was devoting 4.5 hours of my day to "fun."

I take walking breaks around the block as well (downtown Chicago). Definitely helpful. If others question, just remind them of the total time smokers get during the day. No one questions them.

This is why smokers have a huge advantage. They go out for a smoke break every hour. Doing _nothing_ but smoking.

I will try this, sans the smoking, starting now. Goodbye.

The smoking is what makes it so enjoyable ;)

A question to all the excellent commenters here. I work at a place where the company culture considers developers the same way as Macy's employees. 10 minute breaks for every 4 hours you work. Surf the net, chat on IM, everything counts as work....except stepping away from the computer. Be seen away from your desk more than necessary, you get warned of 'not being available during core hours of business'. I am a contractor and I get paid very well to care too much about the company culture.

My productivity is not the best but according to them, I am a star performer. I, personally can't sit longer than an hour without needing a break. I worked for startups with ping pong tables and one large workstation vendor that recently ceased to exist. I miss the culture at those companies.

The company culture where I work has gotten to me, where I am considering leaving my contract to focus on my personal projects. What would you do?

I am the same way. I need a stretch break every hour.

When working in an office, I will take my stretch break and no one has said anything to me yet. If I was in your situation though, I would leverage the fact that they consider you a "star performer." Talk to your manager that you believe the breaks are what make you productive and see if he will turn a blind eye to them.

If he doesn't agree, then maybe that tells you your productivity is not really valued there as much as it would be someplace else.

I really don't see how you can do this in a normal work setting. If I work for 30, take 30 off... an 8 hour work day takes 16 hours...

Even if I got 16 hours of work done in that time, it does not matter really to my employer, who would still see it as 8 hours. Because we bill by the hour, what matters is the # of hours that are worked, not how much work gets done in them.

That said breaks in a lot of tasks are immensely useful. I can't remember how many times I've given up after getting stuck on a work task to come in the next morning and figured it out in 30 minutes.

I wish productivity mattered more :(.

Well this is a problem with the system. Sure, in the short term you are billing by the hour, but in the long term you are really getting paid for results.

Just try going a few weeks sitting at your desk without getting any work done if you don't believe me.

Recently on HN, I read a comment suggesting to bill by the week instead of the hour. An hour is too short of a time period to actually produce anything meaningful but you can get a lot done in a week. I think this method of billing would work much better. I haven't used it yet but I will propose it for my next contract.

When your customer is the government, indirectly, by way of a fixed-fee contract, the actual impact of your quality is often hard to see.

In the typical model, a manager's highest priority is to reduce indirect charges and make sure as much as possible is charged to a contract.

Now I'm not saying anyone is out to defraud, or charge time inappropriately, or etc. But what makes the company money is time it can charge to the gov't. Therefore if they see you spending half your time goofing off, but still getting more done - from their point of view, their legal obligation is to make sure they are charging correctly.

I cannot imagine trying to justify charging half of your time indirectly, with the caveat that "hey, I'm getting even more done". Financially that would be a disaster for them. The only way for it to work out would be to bid double for contracts, which, given how bidding works... doesn't work.

That is because the 30/30 ratio it terrible. I do 50/5 or even 58/2 and it is enough. You need to get up about once an hour and just step away from the computer. It helps a lot to go outside but that can be difficult, so I usually settle for a quick walk around the floor of my building which takes around 2 minutes. Nobody minds.

30/30 is a completely infeasible ratio for a work environment, but the author isn't doing billable work- he's a student. As a student, his concern is raw productivity.

Ratio aside, the principle is sound. The Pomodoro Technique mentioned in other comments seems like a good fit for the workplace. 25/5 is very easy to use on the job, and you still reap the benefits of intent focus plus frequent breaks.

This sounds like an interesting idea for personal projects. My boss might raise an eyebrow if he saw me playing games or surfing the web for half of my day.

I think you specifically don't want to play games or surf the internet. I work in a big building, so about once an hour I get up and go for a 5 minute stroll and come back to my desk. Though I do a lot of work with other people in the building so I guess people just think I'm going to talk to someone I'm working with.

I use a similar pattern, but instead of 30/30, I do 75/30, here are the reasons, 1. I need at least 5 to 10 mins to pick up what's left. 2. Work without distraction never happen(people talk to you, have to open the door for someone, answer the office phone etc). If that happens, I need another 5 mins just to remember I was doing. 3. My productivity picks up after the initial 20mins, and it lasts about 45 to 60 mins. 4. A few things could happen after 75mins of coding a) feature done or bug fixed - checkin code, git push. done take a break b) encounter a problem, internet searching - stop and take a 30 mins break, helps a lot. c) starting checking facebook, hacker news, email etc - stop and take a break. d) feature is not done, and I have not encountered a problem - this is the only time I might not take a break, but every time I didnt, I found myself ended up checking email and facebook a lot :)

30/30 sounds great, for me, 75/30 give me enough time to finish a feature or fix a bug. 4.

I guess any rational sounding justification will do eh - 30mins work and 30mins break? Gimme a break... you're wasting so much time it's not funny.

But I guess you are what you want to believe - http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/october/willpower-resourc...

Not saying the principle is bad, you just need to make the reward significantly cheaper than what it is now.

For those who use Merlin Mann's (10+2)*5 ratio (http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/11/procrastination-hack-102...) and have an iPhone, check out my timer app for it:

http://itunes.apple.com/app/10-2-x5-procrastination-hack/id3...

I like the concept and I personally use variations of it. However, I find that 30/30 is not only the wrong ratio (1:1) but also the lengths don't work too well for certain types of activities. c.f. http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

The concept is excellent. And here is what I use to achieve the exactly same thing: http://senadreport.com/post/1472323819/how-to-stay-focused The ratio for me is maybe 15/45.

Definitely worth a try. I am concerned about my discipline to come back to work after playing a game for 30 mins. May be playing TT would be better idea, since I feel playing physical games refreshes me more that video games.

I would really like a timer app that blocks social, distracting sites during the work sprint so I'm reminded if I start to stray and then unblocks them during the rest.

I'm not sure if by "app" you meant app specifically for a smartphone, or if you meant for a PC - but I believe RescueTime might do what you're looking for (and they're a YC company I believe):

http://www.rescuetime.com/

If you are on a Mac, SelfControl (http://visitsteve.com/work/selfcontrol/) is perfect for this.

I don't know if I could get back to work easily after 30 minutes on Facebook or playing World of Warcraft. Probably not.

up voted for the statement: "Time is now my bitch" :D

The idea itself sounds pretty awesome too... will definitely try it.

The great debate: Do you start with 30 minutes of twittertime or do you start your day working?

Already using this. Can't stay off facebook for more than 30 min anyway...

I'm going to give this a try for my after work side projects.

Sounds like the key is to (1) really work when you're supposedly working (don't check email, don't read RSS, etc.) and (2) take breaks to refresh. Both of these are very old and well known techniques for maximizing health and productivity. Whether there's something magical about the 30/30 split, and forcing yourself to always switch hats like that, regardless of the actual specific situation: that, I'm not so sure of the general applicability of. I often find it takes me a while to get in The Zone, and when I'm Hot it's best to keep Pounding Out The Code and not force myself to stop and go play a game or whatever.

To start with, the author says he switched to Colemak keyboard layout. Interesting, but about as useless as Dvorak. Unless you get everyone to switch to it, you will be disabled whenever you switch to someone else's computer, a kiosk, etc. Why bother?

He mentions having switched to biphasic sleep. If he said- I don't use electricity at night and just go to bed and wake up with the light, then if he got up during the dark hours, that's fine. But scheduling it and forcing your body into a strange deprived sleep pattern is bad for you. Napoleon slept ~4 hrs a night. He was successful for a time, well- except for attempting and failing to conquer the world. Poor decisions may not have been made with more sleep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_sleep

So, that leads us up to the 30/30 work cycle. This actually doesn't sounds that bad. But, it is totally not something that would work in a professional setting. When you are in the middle of an important meeting with the board, or working on getting a product feature out that day, you can't walk out of the meeting or walk out on your team to go play video games. I take time out periodically for a walk, but seriously- grow up.

> Interesting, but about as useless as Dvorak. Unless you get everyone to switch to it, you will be disabled whenever you switch to someone else's computer, a kiosk, etc.

Not true. I learned Dvorak a few years ago, and I can still sit at a Qwerty keyboard and type reasonably fast. It's really not that difficult to go back and forth.

Yeah, the brain has a built in ability to identify context and fit the expression in those parameters. It uses the pre-frontal cortex. This is the same 'functionality' that allows bilingual people to identify which language is being spoken and respond in that one.

People don't trust themselves. You can learn to switch back and forth the same way you learn to talk in different style to your grandparents than your friends, and so on.

What I do is touch type with dvorak (max about 90 wpm) and look at my hands on those rare instances when I'm using qwerty (probably about 20-30 wpm).

If I'm already over 90 on qwerty, is it worth switching to something else? Just do it to ward off CTS?

I really enjoy dvorak and I'm glad I switched but I can't say that the difference is enough to justify the pain of switching. It took me a long time to get used to dvorak. The first few weeks were very unproductive and it took me many months before it felt natural and I was faster than before. But I find it really comfortable since about 80% of the letters I type are on the home row. The benefits of dvorak are less when you're programming because there's a lot more punctuation and dvorak is mainly optimized for English words.

I'm not sure of the relationship between dvorak and repetitive stress injuries. Your fingers travel a lot less with dvorak, so they are doing less work. But I'm not sure if it makes any real difference.

I switched to Colemak, and I am also forced to use qwerty on a lot of keyboards. Colemak is very similar to qwerty, so its not that big a switch. Mostly the r/s location is the biggest issue.

Besides that, it's worth mentioning that there is an executable that you can use for Windows machines to easily switch to Colemak without installing it on the box. I carry it around on a thumbdrive, place it on a network share, and keep it in my Dropbox. I can always get to it. So 80-90% of the time I can use Colemak, and I am reasonably fast at qwerty when I can't.

The reason I switched (like the OP, if you read it again) was to reduce RSI pain/fatique. It's worked wonders for me in that respect. I'm not that much faster, so speed's not a major incentive to switch, IMO.

> it's worth mentioning that there is an executable that you can use for Windows machines to easily switch to Colemak without installing it on the box. I carry it around on a thumbdrive, place it on a network share, and keep it in my Dropbox. I can always get to it. So 80-90% of the time I can use Colemak, and I am reasonably fast at qwerty.

Can you link to a copy of this executable? Is it just an AutoHotkey script?

Yeah, it's a portable keyboard layout in autohotkey. Here's the link (you can get to it from colemak.com):

http://sourceforge.net/projects/pkl/files/Standalone%20Layou...

Similarly for me.

Also, I didn't think Colemak would actually let me type faster, but I did a speed test and scored 102wpm with 0 errors. I used to type 80.

It may not directly be Colemak. I may just type more because Colemak is that much easier to type. Because I type more, I learn to type faster.

How often do you work on someone else's computer? I almost never do. Kiosks (I presume you mean touchscreens like at airports, which are about the only place I use them) are similarly rare, and need little to no substantial text entry.

But for those times that I do need to use other people's computers (most usually, when at an internet cafe while on vacation, when I don't have my laptop with me, and I don't have internet connectivity with my phone, all increasingly rare times), I have a little Windows app I wrote that I can download and run from the web which uses a low-level keyboard hook to translate Qwerty to Dvorak. Installing a keyboard hook[1] on Windows doesn't require any privileges, and runs fine in user mode until the application is shut down.

[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644985%28v=VS.85%2...

"Unless you get everyone to switch to it, you will be disabled whenever you switch to someone else's computer, a kiosk, etc. Why bother?"

I take it you have not tried any alternate layouts. Why do you as someone who has not tried it feel inclined to lecture about the consequences to those who have? Which of us do you think has the clearer picture about the consequences?

Theorize about the potential downsides all you like. In practice, I find it has been a net gain for me personally, and no amount of mere conjecture on your part will change that one bit.

Agreed. I've been using dvorak for 11 years and when I read "Unless you get everyone to switch to it, you will be disabled whenever you switch to someone else's computer, a kiosk, etc." I knew that this person wasn't speaking from personal experience but from imagining what it would be like if he/she switched.

I've typed Dvorak for a couple years, and have been quite happy with it. I'm curious about Colemak, though. Dvorak is pretty established as the alternative English-language keyboard layout - It's not hard to set up on Windows, Unix, or (I'm guessing) OS X. Is Colemak? While I'm convinced that Dvorak is significantly better than Qwerty, if you're the stubborn sort that would use a different keyboard layout for English (spoiler alert: I am), I suspect there's diminishing returns after that. Still, I'm really curious about Colemak (what was the rationale?) - I just don't know anybody who uses it.

My strategy of "heavily customized Emacs / Dvorak on my computers, standard Qwerty / vi otherwise" has been a good compromise over the years, incidentally.

Also, I work with Swedish hackers who remind me that Qwerty is only "standard" so far across the ocean. These things only make sense in a local context.

Funny that they're Swedish - Swedish is one of the few non-English languages for which there is a version of Dvorak - it's called Svorak.

Yeah, I think there's a Danish Dvorak as well. Pretty useless for Japanese, Russian, or Arabic though. :)

I use Colemak. It's supposed to be easier to learn than Dvorak, and it leaves some keyboard shortcuts intact (e.g. ctrl+zxcv). There is a colemak.vim file that completely customizes vim for colemak. Warning: it changes nearly every single key binding.

The only downside to colemak is that d is next to t. This sometimes makes it difficult to type Dutch, because some words end with "dt". A typo "td" is easy to make.

Hi, Chetan here. First off, thank you for your opinions.

About Colemak, I think a bunch of the replies to your posts hit the nail on the head. It's been a really rewarding switch, and I can still type QWERTY fine when I have to.

As for biphasic sleep, if you do a bit of research on it, you'll find that it's even more natural than a monophasic sleep cycle (think about why the siesta is so popular in other countries). It's just not as convenient for the average American, since everyone doesn't follow it. That being said, if you have some flexibility with your schedule and can implement it successfully, it can turn out to be better for your health and time than a monophasic sleep cycle.

And you're right about the 30/30 cycle being hard to use in a professional setting. That's why I would use it for personal projects, or when I'm working at home. It's just another tool for your productivity toolbox; you don't have to use it in every situation for it to be useful.

Right. The argument is that we force ourselves into monophasic sleep, which is unnatural and inefficient.

"Why We Nap" (ISBN 0817634622) is a great resource about polyphasic sleep. Most of us are in the habit of monophasic sleep, even if we have crazy or limited sleep schedules. The thing is, if your body goes through more than one sleep cycle in a period of sleep, then there is a period in the middle where you are basically not getting anything from the sleep. Biphasic sleeping is a way to reset the cycle more quickly, so instead of 2 hours of low value sleep, you just wake up for a half hour or so.

Personally, I've found that another important thing is simply sleeping consistently. That means either certain times of the day or for certain amounts of time. For example, always sleeping in three hours means your body knows what to expect and makes the most out of the time. Biphasic is just the easiest (and perhaps most natural) way to do it.

I found this page convincing that polyphasic sleep won't be optimal for performance in practice, despite its obvious appeal

http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm

""" Healthy body clock runs a 24 hour cycle. This cycle will make you sleepy during the subjective night (which can be midday too). This is why you won't be able to wake up from your nap in your subjective night without an alarm clock. Alarm clocks are unhealthy. They prevent sleep from fulfilling its function. The choice is yours: either (1) sleep polyphasically or (2) sleep naturally and let your brain develop its full intellectual potential. """

Here is a rebuttal to that article by a prolific polyphasic sleeper:

http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/2006/11/01/an-attack-on-p...

Thanks for the pointer. I found a follow up from the same author I posted:

http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic2010.htm

he addresses some of the critiques of his original article.

> Unless you get everyone to switch to it, you will be disabled whenever you switch to someone else's computer, a kiosk, etc. Why bother?

I already feel disabled when not using [my favorite brand] keyboard, regardless the layout.

I switch between US-English and Traditional Chinese input all the time, sometimes mid-sentence. Surely going from QWERTY to Colemak can't be that bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Chinese_Tr...

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