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Comment by systemizer | Hacker News Reader

Given the post's lack of detail relating to the experience of creating the game itself, I fear OP is treating his craft as a means to an end; instead of loving his craft for what it is. I fell into a similar trap when, after leaving my job to pursue my "passion," I became my own slavemaster, treating myself as resource for production, and eventually learned to hate my once cherished activities. I hope OP's game succeeds; regardless, I would not recommend, to anyone, to pursue a personal hobby, dwelling, or passion as a means to reaching some external reward.

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> Given the post's lack of detail relating to the experience of creating the game itself, I fear OP is treating his craft as a means to an end; instead of loving his craft for what it is.

I'm sure this is true for some people, but it seems to completely disregard the problems this guy went through and his personal context.

It's true that programming and/or game development may be a craft to some people, but it doesn't sound like it was for this guy.

He went through something bad, was censored and censured for talking about it, and came out of the wringer feeling betrayed and lost. It sounded like something went wrong with his little brother, too.

Rather than the "I have a dream and I want to make this game real" story we usually see, this sounds more like a guy turning to his hobby as a therapeutic outlet, specifically:

> While my career was falling apart, I decided to start making a video game. Normally I might have played a video game as a way to retreat from the world. But instead I channeled all of my anger, sadness, disappointment, and frustration into a project that became the video game you see above. . . . I can take some fictional people, make everyone betray them for all their own petty and cowardly reasons, and our protagonists will just have to deal with it. . . . So now I've resigned from a job I had grown to despise, and I'm channeling my frustration into something productive as a way of dealing with everything that had happened.

This post is certainly an advertisement for his game, but it's also definitely a way to try to vent about things he's not allowed to talk about -- I can't imagine how frustrating that must be.

I think that saying that his feelings now are due to his misunderstanding of "his craft" is needlessly dismissive.

You're right; I don't know OP, and I've probably made some assumptions that are incorrect, but that's just the inevitable consequence of stating anything positively. I did, however, try not to attempt to state anything about OP's personal character or feelings. My initial inspiration for my comment was based on the quote you mentioned above: he channeled his anger/frustration into his craft. To me, that sounded like he found a dwelling in his craft for programming, and it reminded me of one of my own personal experiences

I coach people in these circumstances. In most cases they simply lack a model for what constitutes a hobby-type skill vs. what constitutes a full-time+-type skill. They don't know how to tell the difference without diving in and trying it. And I sympathize, having done that myself.

IMO a really basic helpful model is: 1) thing I could do in my sleep and still amaze people with OR make money with == means of making a living and 2) thing that excites me and yet always seems just out of reach == hobby.

However the devil is in the details and you cannot by easily diminish the excitement of #2 (above) because you risk becoming the enemy just by suggesting that it not be prized above all other work. So there are other models which must be skillfully employed to help tease out this comprehension. It's kind of a minefield, actually.

Maybe it would help if the term "hobby" managed to lose its stigma of "uptight, unproductive nonsense". A substantial part of today's (open source) software landscape has begun as work from hobbyists. There are hobbies (like cosplay or - yes game development) which take enormous dedication, manage to amaze a lot of people and, in rare cases, can make the hobbyist famous.

Nevertheless, those are usually not the things you spontaneously think of when you hear the term. So maybe untangling the different motivations and giving more value to things that are not immediately meant to make a living could help to make a change.

Regarding 1) thing I could do in my sleep and still amaze people.

It is a bit dangerous to be unconsciously good (ie in my sleep) at something and think that you can make money with it.

Let's take something like chess. Unless you are a TOP 10 player, you are not going to be making a good living from chess unless you go into secondary sources of income: teaching,writing, coaching. Source: as a master I know many poor grandmasters.

So there has to be a market demand for the skill that you have deliberately practiced to be unconsciously good at.

Like that guy who can skip a stone 88 times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0_hEvNOqGM

He certainly enjoys it and people are amazed by it. However there is a very limited demand for experienced stone skippers.

Yes, this is a good example of what I consider the fundamental work to be done in the area of #1. A lot of career books and tools aim at this kind of approach as well. I also use a Role/Group/Reward model that makes it clear that even if you have an offer on the table where you'd be playing chess for great money, you still have inquiries to make.

Unfortunately, there is hardly any good measure for future market demand. There's just unproven heuristics, overarching anecdotes and random guesses.

That's an interesting perspective for not following your passion. Could you elaborate on the experience as to how following your passion seemed appealing but actually wasn't?

the problem is that when you turn a passion into a job you get a lot of other things that you may not passionate about.

i had a passion for programming in highschool. but i absolutely hated working 9-5 in an office environment. the problem was when i had that experience as an intern i didn't know why i hated it. it took me years to figure out what the real problem was and to find the kind of work that aligned with my passions and avoided the things i didn't like about it while also along the way changing my feelings about some aspects (9-5 looks less bad when other factors are good (i still avoid it though)).

I don't think he intended to use this post to talk about game development, he's doing it on a forum thread + reddit and imgur posts. He might have taken the Opportunity that his CV has been cleared.

Here's the thread if you are interested:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/himeko-sutori-...

This is very simple, but very wise advice. Hard learned.

> I would not recommend, to anyone, to pursue a personal hobby, dwelling, or passion as a means to reaching some external reward.

Why not?

A passion is something that is personal and internal. It's your direct experience with a craft that is becomes a natural extension of you. When you change your relationship to that craft such that you require some external means, it no longer becomes purely internal. In today's culture, which (I believe) overvalues monetization and productivity, it is easy to be swept into external desires for accomplishment. And, even if you do achieve your goals, it is very difficult to go back to re-experience the original internal, personal relationship you enjoyed with that craft

That means you have the choice between:

a) Working without passion and having almost no time for what you are passionate for.

b) Working with reduced passion. And if you are a bit lucky even lots of passion.

I think (b) is preferable.

And don't see why in a) you couldn't manage to have time for your passions, i.e. leave at 5. For me it meant lowering my ambitions and not trying to be fulfilled only by me work, but instead make time for unproductive activities (hobbies/friends/family). Even if I have less money in the end I feel way better.

Well, basically do what you love because you love it. Treat your occupation as a business, even if you are just an employee. That (at least to me) is a good way to think things through in their proper context.

If a person loves their occupation then that's great! But he/she still needs to treat it as a business rather than a mission for a higher cause (even if it was a mission for a higher cause) because without financial insight it gets hard to prioritize things.

although I don't think it necessarily applies in this case from all I've read in all cases where you look to your hobby activities as a source of needed financing those hobbies become more like work. Hopefully it is work that succeeds for him, and that he will enjoy.

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