This sounds like a description of Harvard's admission policies with regards to Asians.
If you re-read my comment, it's clear that I'm not talking about rates of representation. You are trying to bring that in. We're talking about the process, be it a policy implementation or an algorithm.
It's the age-old "equality of outcome" vs. "equality of opportunity."
https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Berge...
The answer is that asian immigrants are a self-selected subset of 1.5B asians in asia.
The social justice mental toolkit doesn't have an answer to this anomaly. American census numbers and the assumption of a normal distribution within them don't square with the highly-motivated subset of Asians who immigrated.
1) Cultural factors often raise people from poor to middle class
2) The above often happens with little monetary input
3) Culture is transmissible
In contrast, giving people money and resources has a very poor track record for increasing wealth long term. Why aren't social justice people all about the transmission of wealth building cultural knowledge? If anything, on the whole, they seem ideologically in favor of policies that erode the transmission of wealth building cultural knowledge.My guess is a combination of social media obsession and limited life experience cause them to optimize for 'sounding woke' over 'things that help real people'.
I think this type of statement represents the main problem that folks who run down the “Asians at Harvard” rabbit hole.
People assume that Harvard admissions is all just based on who is the biggest brainiac based on grades and SATs, and that’s simply not the case at Harvard or any other elite school.
Decent article on the topic:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/10/21/dockets-...
High SAT and high grades gets you merely a 2 (1 being best) in one of four categories (academic, athletic, extracurricular, and personal/leadership). If you get a 2 in three of four categories, it still only gets you a 40% chance of admission.
That said, getting a 1 in any category gives the applicant a bump to anywhere between 48% and 88% chance of admission. Note that only about 100 people per year get a 1 on academic, and that still only gives them a 68% chance of admission if that’s their only 1. Standards are sky high.
To anyone who has high scores and great grades in a rigorous curriculum and wants to apply to an elite school, I advise them to differentiate themselves in ways other than academics — it’s a much easier path to acceptance. In my opinion, these non-academic selection criteria is one of the things that makes top schools amazing places.
Specifically:
- Great grades and great SAT scores (750+ in Math and Verbal) are a baseline for being considered.
- The more of the following list below an applicant can check off, the more likely they are to get admitted. If they have several high quality checks, the requirements for grades and scores can actually decrease to a surprisingly low level:
(rough order of importance... non-exhaustive list)
1. Recruited athlete.
2. Diversity candidate (race).
3. Notable academic achievement (e.g., publish a paper).
4. Demonstrate leadership via some verifiable and substantial project.
5. Be a skilled-but-not-recruited athlete (esp. in non-varsity sports), entertainer, or person of interest (e.g., children of famous or powerful people). Accolades or championships help.
6. Create a substantial and successful business or non-profit.
7. Diversity candidate (geographical).
8. Have an incredible personal narrative (e.g., Malala) — this might be more important... it’s hard to tell.
9. Be the child of an alum.
10. Be the child of a substantial donor (also hard to rate in importance... it really only comes into play if they aren’t admitted normally).
11. School/department applied to (depends on university).
It boggles my mind when someone (Asian or otherwise) points to great grades and great SAT scores and gripes about not getting into an elite school. Elite schools explicitly state that they are looking for well-rounded applicants or “multidimensional excellence”. Why is that person/applicant surprised when they only focused on one dimension and did that in a non-exceptional way (compared to other applicants)?
Anyway, this is a topic I know quite a bit about. Please feel free to ask follow-up questions.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but when their internal paperwork seems to indicate an ASTOUNDING difference in "personality" for blacks vs Asians, at a large-numbers level.. I mean do we really buy that? Can we even just consider for a moment how racist that sentiment is? Against both races?
2. Affirmative action is a thing. If you stop the so-called “Asian quota” (e.g., by going race blind), then any slots gained will most likely result in losses for slots from other ethnic minorities. Some people believe that shaping the student body a certain way is good for the university. I personally agree with that general statement, but the specifics are not easy to hash out — there are many trade offs, and it’s not easy to determine where the magic cutoff is for too few or too many.
3. If Harvard goes race blind, don’t believe for a second that it will turn out like Stuyvesant or Berkeley. IIRC, when the change happened, Stuyvesant did not focus on the “multidimensional excellence” that most other elite schools do. Berkeley just lets in too many people to need to review to that level of detail. Harvard and other elite schools might see a very small Asian bump, but my guess is that it won’t be what people expect.
Note that I strongly advocate for fairness in the admissions process for all people, and I definitely think that some Asians get stereotyped poorly. That said, I also think that a lot of people, Asians as well as non-Asians, simply don’t make efforts to shape themselves in a way that optimizes their chance for elite school admission.
I can't tell if you're disputing my assertion that they first decided what their racial buckets "should" look like, then stack ranked within each bucket and fudged the numbers to make it look less discriminatory.
It's that last part that I have a real problem with. If Harvard wants to say, "we want x% black and y% Asian, etc".. ok, I guess, but if they're going to say "black people have lots of personality to make up for their lack of science skills", and vice versa to Asians, that's just racist as hell to everybody involved. Own your decisions.
That can be quite different for grad schools, though.
I actually had extracurricular activities in mind as one of the "seemingly-objective-and-reasonably-sensible metrics". (It can be harder to judge—e.g. "president of the choir club" could mean anything from "four people got together twice a month to sing" to "organized concerts and musicals in collaboration with the theatre department"—but maybe candidates describe more precisely what they did.) Legacy and athlete stuff make some sense in terms of the university's financial self-interest... most of the other things can be interpreted as demonstrating ability in some way (academic and leadership ability), or motivation/"Big 5 trait Conscientiousness". The "incredible personal narrative" seems like a wildcard that could point to lots of different things, but in Malala's case... in general, public relations could be a reason to take famous people. Department applied to, I assume that's because some departments have lots more applicants or don't need as many people than others. It's the racial and geographical diversity things that seem out of place.
Geographical diversity question: I've heard that, specifically, colleges like to have at least one person from all 50 states. Why is that? Just because it sounds cool? Is it really for some kind of viewpoint or background diversity? (A counterargument to that, at least for elite schools, is the same as for racial diversity: if you think the people from e.g. South Dakota who make it into an elite school are at all typical of South Dakotans, you've got another think coming.) Is it so they'll have alumni everywhere and therefore recruiting help and alumni interviewers everywhere, which wouldn't be efficient if all their alumni were in one place? (How many South Dakotans who go to an elite school actually stay in South Dakota after graduation? That doesn't seem to make sense.) A quick google merely turns up the quote "“Every school likes to be able to stick that little pin on the map and say they have kids from all 50 states,” said Andrea van Niekerk, a college admissions consultant and former associate director of admissions at Brown University", which is basically "because it sounds cool". (I also note that "a student from every state" could mean, at most, accepting 49 students you wouldn't have otherwise—probably less—whereas the extra 19% of Asians that Harvard didn't admit (I mention 42% vs 23% figures later), of a class of 1600, means accepting 300 students they otherwise wouldn't have—so the every-state policy has a smaller impact than the racial-diversity policy, and maybe the impact is small enough that indulging that whim is ok.) Do you know the rationale, for this and/or for geographical diversity in general?
Historical question: I've heard that the reason extracurriculars were originally introduced, as a criterion for candidates, was as an excuse to accept fewer Jewish students. Here's an article asserting this for Harvard specifically: http://web.archive.org/web/20190109180814/https://www.econom... Do you know if this is true?
SAT ceiling question: The maximum score you can get on the SAT is low enough that there are plenty of people that max it out, and plenty of others who would have maxed it out except they made one or two silly mistakes. I suspect that's why you say 750+, in that differences between anything above that are just noise; and that this still leaves a large pool to sort through. (As a data point, would the set of perfect-score SAT applicants still be too large to fit in a Harvard undergraduate class?) If the SAT had a higher ceiling, say going up to 900 or 1000 somehow, where the difference in actual ability between the average 850 and the average 750 was the same as between the average 750 and the average 650, then do you think they'd weigh SAT scores more heavily?
Olympiad question: are academic contests (math olympiad, physics olympiad, etc.) counted heavily in the "notable academic achievement" category? If so, would you say they substitute for a higher-ceilinged SAT—that if the latter existed, then they'd put less effort into researching and evaluating the olympiad contests?
Caltech question: I've heard that Caltech, at least as of some years ago, basically just selected for academic scores, and they had 0.6% blacks. Looking at this year, they have 40% Asians, compared to Harvard's 23%. Come to think of it, I've also heard that the University of California system is not allowed to implement affirmative action, and this year ... they break "Asian" down into subgroups, but if I add together "Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, Korean, Other Asian, South Asian, and Vietnamese", I get 42%. Anyway, any comments about Caltech or UC?
EDIT: I didn't say this was just or right, just the current state.
Getting loaned money is not a right, and if you are irresponsible, it's harmful.
So if lending more to a certain segment of the population hurts the bank's profit, I'd also expect it to cause more problems for that population segment too.
In terms of regulations, I think by regulation they shouldn't be allowed to give the algorithms anything but loan amounts, payment schedules, and payment history. Don't give them locations. Don't give them age, name, race, or gender. Don't even give them the names of banks, since this too can be used in a discriminatory way that can be used to imply geographic location and thus race etc. Yes, people with no credit history will get terrible scores, but that's the point of a credit system. It should be based solely off of your merits and what you've actually done, not off of what people in your area/situation tend to do based on statistics. Then it's just statistics creating statistics, and socioeconomic mobility freezes
Just as different cultures value these differently, it makes sense that one culture that changes over time might as well.