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Comment by il | Hacker News Reader

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for this, but I don't think Patrick is the brilliant SEO wizard some people on here make him out to be, certainly not anywhere near a Rand Fishkin type level.

He's an excellent writer and marketer, but it's not like he's privy to some magical SEO techniques that would explode SEO traffic.

I would be surprised if he uses SEO tools much himself. From what I've seen, he's very good at identifying small niches, creating good content, etc. Basically good SEO fundamentals, not cutting edge trickery.

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I don't think Patrick would claim to be a "brilliant SEO wizard". He's made mention of friends who are.

Patrick's SEO abilities are notable on HN because he has managed to run a business quantifiably tied to SEO and search advertising. He's hasn't just "done" SEO. Lots of HN people can claim that. He's successfully taken a product to market with it. That's impressive.

Referring to Patrick as an SEO undervalues him. SEO isn't really his schtick. Engineered product marketing is. Engineered marketing includes SEO, but also A/B testing, metrics, optimization, and a grab bag of other "lean startup" ideas.

(Also, in case it isn't obvious, Patrick is popular here because he writes thoughtfully, helpfully, and often.)

Please rap my knuckles soundly with a wooden spoon if I ever refer to myself as a wizard in a context unrelated to Dungeons and Dragons.

You may be right, but at the same time his niche success is much closer to "what I'm looking for" than the latest SEO-trick-de-jour.

While I'm impressed by the ability of people like Rank and Greywolf to identify and exploit new-found SEO techniques for short term profit, with the knowledge that Matt Cutts' team is going to be hot on their trail as soon as anybody notices, I'm _significantly_ more interested in Patrick's longterm sustainable business strategy.

While I might be prepared to go out on a grey-hat SEO limb for an idea of my own with only a marginal chance of success, I'm _much_ more cautious about risking Google blackholeing any great ideas I've got, or any of my clients' sites...

I guess what I'm saying is that "excellent writing and marketing" _is_ a magical SEO technique. It's not a $50k/month affiliate scheme or a $2k/day Adwords trick, but I suspect Patrick's BCC is a properly valuable business that someone might sensibly buy off him one day. I'm not so sure I'd ever consider buying a quick moneymaking website off Rand or Michael...

> and I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for this

From the HN guidelines:

Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you.

I feel this is different. patio11 is one of the most popular members of the community (probably the most popular, aside from pg himself) and to disagree with an estimation of his value is to violate the norms of the community. il is simply signaling that he recognizes the norms of the community and is voicing a dissenting opinion: in this case, perhaps the appropriate social maneuver.

I eagerly welcome discussion on this topic.

I don't think this is different at all.

His comment wouldn't lose anything, but rather win in terms of readability, by removing those 10 words ("and I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for this"). Those words are simply unnecessary and unobjective. They don't provide anything except making the comment sound more sensational than it actually is.

There are good reasons for this guideline, and I think those reasons apply to everyone, including patio11 and pg.

I can confirm that Patrick knows more about SEO than 98% of SEO experts.

I know this because he is a member of our community and we chat often, I tell him stuff that is off the record & sometimes he evolves the model & pushes my model of thinking in new directions.

If I had his programming skills my goal would to be able to retire by the end of next year. :D

Probably the only thing that holds Patrick back in terms of aggressively using SEO to make a ton of money is that he isn't primarily driven by making a boatload of money. Some people are, but he isn't.

He has mentioned how lacking some of the tools are -- he once referred to Google Website Optimizer as "the devil" IIRC.

Whether Patrick has the inclination to work on tools like this, I don't know. I think it'd be a good idea for him to write a book, too, but he pooh-pooh'd that idea on TechZing because there's just not enough money in it.

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