Hacker News Reader

Comment by CalRobert | Hacker News Reader

When I first had a kid, it was living hell. I mean, it was wonderful, and joyful (really, I'm not kidding) but waking up 5 times a night with a screaming 2 month old was effing brutal. I wore a 50 yard stare all the time, my colleagues tell me.

Now, though, with an 18 month old I do a lot better - maybe even better than before having her. She still wakes up early (6:30 AM or so) BUT now that I know I absolutely, positively, HAVE to get to bed at a decent hour, I go to bed before 10 PM most nights - 9:30 or even 9:00 is not rare (and I find myself considering it a luxury). I used to know that I _should_ get to bed by 11:00 PM or so but often pushed it to 12:00 or 1:00 (mind you in college I tried to get to bed by 4 AM as a rule - I like night).

I wake up before her even some mornings, and we have a couple hours of daddy-daughter time. We even watched the sun rise in winter; it's nice.

But before her I HATED getting up early.

View on HN

It's really hard to explain to people just how effing brutal it can be for the first several years. Sleep is so random and uneven, it can really break a parent. I have a theory that people have evolved to forget just how bad the first years are, and that's the only reason people have more than one kid, because if we did really remember it all, we'd have all have serious Post Baby Trauma Disorder and no one would ever have more than one kid. You're right, it's just effing brutal.

Having two kids was the worst. Twice as many, still a noob parent. Poor kids, poor mum and dad. I mean we were nice to them but always exhausted.

Was lucky. Got some good advice. Listened to it. Kids and parents are more happy now.

We now have more than three and it is still way less stressful.

What was the advice?

Until they are one year old they decide.

Around one year they can learn to sleep well.

Every parent that kids needs to learn to eat and drink from cups.

I also understood and enjoyed helping my oldest daughter learn to walk.

But for some reason it never occured to me that sleeping is something that many kids will need to learn.

The basic rules are simple.

Part 1: make sure the environment don't change while they are asleep

After a certain age:

- never let them fall asleep with a bottle

- or while you are singing or saying prayers

- or listening to music

- or watching tv

Do read stories, sing, play and try to make sure they are happy when they go to bed. Just make sure they are awake.

Basically they shouldn't fall asleep in a state they won't be in the next time they turn around furing sleep.

Kids after a certain age should fall asleep in their own bed and on their own.

Part 2:

Kids should not be afraid and cry themselves to sleep.

But if you just leave them alone in their bed they will.

Instead say some magic nice words that you decide, then walk out. Start a timer for one minute. Walk back in (even if the kid isn't crying) say the same words you said when you left. The rest of of the night until the kid fall asleep (i.e. not until the calm down) go back every 3rd minute, i.e. every 180 seconds, sharp. Use a timer. Say the same words.

The next day use 3 minutes first and 5 minutes the rest of the evening. Use a timer. Be consequent.

What you want to teach is you are going to be there for them either they cry or not.

Don't stop until after they are asleep. (I happily go back two times more and I don't care if it seems they are sleeping, if tjey open their eyes they'll close them just as fast, now convinced that you are still there.) If one stop going back when they calm down then they understand they'll have to cry to get attention.

Next day 5 and 7 minutes, then 7 and 9 etc. By now they are probably relaxing after a few minutes.

Except for my first who had already gotten a bad habit by the time I started teaching, the rest picked it up in 3 or 4 days. After that they'd enjoy going to bed.

Two more things;

- make sure somebody can hear them if they wake up in the night. Mostly because who wants their kid to be afraid, but a nive side effect is they learn that thet are not forgotten.

- do sleep training on good days (not when new teeths are arriving or while they have the cold)

> Kids should not be afraid and cry themselves to sleep.

> But if you just leave them alone in their bed they will.

Worked for us 3x. Did it soon after they no longer physically needed to eat in the night, which is a lot earlier than you'd think. Did it around 3 months IIRC. Two or three bad nights with each one (listening to the crying is no fun and I get why people cave) and pretty much smooth sailing from there on.

We did do some prep by deliberately delaying our responses to their crying, especially at night time, weeks earlier, and stretching out that delay as weeks went on, to break the "I cry, they show up seconds later, spazzing out and showering me with attention" expectation. We might have had to prep by pushing them to one nighttime feeding too, but they'd done that on their own by then anyway—then again, delaying responses helps with that since you're not rushing in there every time they whimper, so that may have been why that part happened "naturally".

Huh, I thought the person you're responding to explicitly advised the opposite? I.e. - don't cry it out?

We live in a flat with poor soundproofing and out of a desire not to make our neighbours miserable (especially the nurse who really needs a good night's sleep after a long shift..) we've tried to minimize night crying. She sleeps pretty well now.

Oof, you're right, I totally misread that.

We were fortunate enough to be in detached housing. If we'd still not been consistently getting full nights of sleep until almost a year after our first one was born (as in the post I initially responded to, I gather) we definitely wouldn't have had two more. Yikes. Our total months of disrupted sleep for all three combined isn't that long.

My favorite thing as a parent is telling other parents that kids are a joy.

They are (after the first 10 months are over). But for that first 6-10 months, oh sweet fuck is it miserable. I honestly don't remember anything from that time period other than exhaustion. And you can see it on new parents faces. That blank, almost ptsd stare.

It's hilarious.

It's a good thing we are genetically programmed to find young babies the most adorable things in the world, especially our own, no matter how loud, wrinkly or poop-producing they are. Without it, babies would never survive.

By the time the cuteness starts to wear off, the worst is over. Well, they don't listen, disobey everything, and supposedly puberty is going to be even worse, but at least you can play boardgames with them. Played X-wing with my 9 year old yesterday. That makes the 9 year investment worth it.

Same experience here. I felt like a dead man walking when my kiddo was born. Absolutely lifeless and ready to die. These days he is 18mo and acts as my alarm clock. Every day 6:20 sharp. Not a minute early, not a minute late. I am quite amazed actually.

I still go to bed late at times and absolutely regret it the next morning. On days when I go to bed before 10, I feel amazing - totally refreshed, happy, physically well and ready to go. On days I go to bed past 11:30 or closer to 12 - 12:30, I feel like total shit. Waking up hurts. My body aches so much and brain asleep most of the day. My eyes are closing and I cannot focus. Those days are usually the ones where my kiddo is most taxing on me, as if he knows dad feels like shit so why not make him wish he were dead.

Sleep is so damn important. Don’t skip it. I probably shaved 5-10 years of my life already.

There was a doc on Joe Rogan show talking all about sleep - so eye opening, highly recommend looking for that interview if you’d rather listen than read.

That is so true how it changes when you KNOW you will be up at a certain hour... I can't ignore my son as easily as I could ignore my dog if it is up too early!

I have the opposite problem though my son is already a night owl and keeps finding excuses to come back to our room and tell us random things!

Reply on news.ycombinator.com