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Comment by CyberFonic | Hacker News Reader

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

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How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die before age 40?

This stereotype of dingy third-world airlines with incompetent, untrained pilots borders on racism. At the very least, one should notice that flying the world’s newest airliner in significant numbers is incompatible with one‘s preconceptions.

The first officer in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 was confirmed to have 350 flight hours, which is much lower then the US standard for the large carriers.

Southwest Airlines, for example requires:

> Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered.

https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications

Delta requires:

> Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time.

> Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turboprop or turbofan time.

> 90% of the flight time logged in powered lift category aircraft (e.g. AV-8B, F-35B, and V-22) will be credited to the Delta Air Lines 1,000 hour fixed wing turboprop/turbofan requirement.

> Minimum of 250 hours PIC in an aircraft categorized as an airplane.

> The flight time logged in a powered lift category aircraft cannot be credited towards PIC aircraft time in accordance with 14 C.F.R. 61.159.

> Minimum of 50 hours of fixed wing multi-engine time.

https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm

United requires:

> Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed-wing turbine time

https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.ht...

The European carriers, on the other hand, do not have such strict requirements.

These are all pilot qualifications. The first officer was new and had ~200 flight hours. The pilot/captain had over 8000 flight hours. [0]

Look at Ethiopian Airlines own job postings![1]

   >Qualifications:
 Must hold a current and valid JAA/FAA or ICAO ATPL/CPL
    A current 777 type rating
    Minimum Flight time
        *3500 hours* jet time
        *2500 hours* Pilot in command on jet aircraft
        Command time in excess of 500 hours on 777

[0]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-rela...

[1]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy

Is this clear enough?

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsI...

These are the minimum FAA requirements. Major airlines have higher requirements, while regionals have lower requirements.

The US is unique because flying is far more affordable and common, especially when compared to the alternative of going to a university, even a reasonable state school.

They only introduced that rule in 2013 as your link states, and it doesn't seem like most other places bother with such high requirements.[0]

"On Ethiopian flight 302, the first officer may have had just 200 hours, but the captain, a 29-year old career Ethiopian Airlines pilot, had a very respectable 8,000 hours under his belt. There’s no indication, at this point in the investigation, that crew experience may have been a factor in the accident."

I still don't see why you are harping on the experience angle when there seems to be much more evidence that the weird Boeing "secret" anti-stall system(MCAS) seems to be in play, since Boeing is trying to come up with an update for it...Also the general maintenance issues that seems to have occurred before at least one of the flights where the same issue was noted and/or the faulty sensors were ignored by groundcrew.

[0]https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-much-experience-do-pilots-...

And FTA this thread is about:

"French air accident investigation agency BEA said on Tuesday the flight data recorder in the Ethiopian crash that killed 157 people showed “clear similarities” to the Lion Air disaster. Since the Lion Air crash, Boeing has been pursuing a software upgrade to change how much authority is given to the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, a new anti-stall system developed for the 737 MAX.

Some U.S. pilots have complained they were unaware of the new system, which is mentioned in the index of the aircraft’s full manual but not the text, according to a version seen by Reuters. Airlines have some discretion to customize the manuals.

The cause of the Lion Air crash has not been determined, but the preliminary report mentioned the Boeing system, a faulty, recently replaced sensor and the airline’s maintenance and training."

So yeah, blame the flight crew... /s

> They only introduced that rule in 2013 as your link states

The major carriers were always stricter. The 2013 rule changed to address a problem at the regional carriers.

> and it doesn't seem like most other places bother with such high requirements.[0]

Which I explicitly stated in my original post:

>>> The European carriers, on the other hand, do not have such strict requirements.

> I still don't see why you are harping on the experience angle

I weren't. I pointed out a specific misunderstanding in the comment I've responded to.

>>>> How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die before age 40?

Fair enough. Back to the actual issue here:

"When it was rolled out, MCAS took readings from only one sensor on any given flight, leaving the system vulnerable to a single point of failure. One theory in the Lion Air crash is that MCAS was receiving faulty data from one of the sensors, prompting an unrecoverable nose dive.

In the software update that Boeing says is coming soon, MCAS will be modified to take readings from both sensors. If there is a meaningful disagreement between the readings, MCAS will be disabled."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-fe...

can't be right, airlines literally don't hire pilots with lower than required hours. they'd be sued into oblivion and their license to operate taken away if they did that. it's an ironclad rule afaik

Hypothetically, aspiring US pilots could be required to spend years flying cargo, or working abroad, or in the military, or paying $$$$ for training, to rack up the required flight hours to be eligible for US passenger jobs.

(I have no idea if this is the case or not - I'm merely saying it's possible)

Typically, it takes at least 2 years for a pilot to earn enough hours to get hired on at a regional airline in the US. Add on several more years of jet experience before you can be qualified to work at a major airline or one of the larger cargo companies like UPS or FedEx.

The U.S. is more wealthy and has a large private aviation community because private individuals can afford to buy and are permitted to fly their own small planes. As s result, it is easier for Americans to build up experience as aviators before going to work for an airline.

The other thing the US has is the 2 largest airforces in the world (The US Air Force, and the US Navy). This provides the opportunity for pilots to get a lot of flight time in jets without having to pay for it via flights schools or private aviation.

Training in simulators costs money. Just flying doesn’t prepare you for dealing with these rare situations, because most of it is autopilot/by the book.

I think your comment is out of line to accuse someone of racism. This airline has a bad record of aviation accidents, yet you would rather censure someone for simply not sharing your opinion.

No, these airlines do not have bad safety records, unless you go back into ancient history. They are licensed to fly anywhere in the world. Their safety rating is better than easyjet, Ryanair, Spirit, and Southwest: https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-tool/

The continued insistence against easily checked facts proves my point.

That has not been glossed over at all, people bring it up all the time, especially in reference to Lion Air. But it's not a unifying factor in the two cases. Ethiopian Airlines has a very good safety track record and I have not seen it reported that they operate with more inexperienced pilots than elsewhere.

I don’t think there have been any reported cases where US pilots dealt with similiar MCAS issues. In fact, I’ve only seen three likely MCAS repeated nose down situations: the Lion air flight prior to the crash, the Lion crash, and the Ethiopian crash.

There was only one report I’ve seen in the NASA database related to the MAX going nose down. However, it doesn’t even appear that event was related to MCAS, as MCAS supposedly is only enabled in manual mode, and that situation happened when the plane was in autopilot. Further, the plane only dove once, not repeatedly as in Lion and Ethiopian.

So in other words according to your theory, Boeing has made a plane that is only safe in the hands of the best pilots? Better start cancelling thousands of orders then since by definition, at least 50% of pilots will be below average.

Should be fine for any pilot qualified by US standards. Not sure about other countries.

I have anecdotally heard that some other countries train pilots as "button pushers" without really understanding what the plane is doing or having a solid understanding of flight principles.

Wasn't at least one of the Ethiopian Air guys quite experienced?

The pilot had 8000 hours...

A significant difference, too, is the US operators opted for the supplemental alerting package (a paid upgrade) for MCAS (see "AOA DISAGREE"). This might have made the difference on the two accident aircraft had they had that same package.

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